Do you really need four $300 mid range drivers? The specs look very good but wow! $$$$$$$
94dB efficiency is up there as is a very strong Bl. 6mm Xmax and 40Hz Fs is more like home hifi mid/bass drivers though.
I can see the Bose problem, but there must be many ways to do this job with much less expenditure? Proper crossover design (active or passive) is a huge factor. I'm listening to some "PA" 10" and compression drivers through moderately complex crossovers and some class D amps from China. The quality and headroom is excellent.
With a low crossover, the compression driver and horn is where the driver quality needs to be.
Watching with interest 😉
94dB efficiency is up there as is a very strong Bl. 6mm Xmax and 40Hz Fs is more like home hifi mid/bass drivers though.
I can see the Bose problem, but there must be many ways to do this job with much less expenditure? Proper crossover design (active or passive) is a huge factor. I'm listening to some "PA" 10" and compression drivers through moderately complex crossovers and some class D amps from China. The quality and headroom is excellent.
With a low crossover, the compression driver and horn is where the driver quality needs to be.
Watching with interest 😉
I just saw the price and specification of the BMS compression drivers Eeek!
Take your time with the crossovers. It's going to be quite a system.
Take your time with the crossovers. It's going to be quite a system.
I'm still trying to work on this system. Actually, the BMS 4594 is tough to get. There aren't many distributors in the US and the ones that do carry don't have stock. Just today I got an email that two of the compression drivers are still on order. So it's been a few weeks I've had to wait. And yes very pricey. If you try to look for a good deal you have to wait for it. So thats what I've been doing.
The MTM configuration I want has taken some time and research. The horn needs to go low enough to space the 10-inch drivers correctly - at their acoustic centers. They must be less that one wavelength apart. So I'm looking at the horn playing at around 600Hz. The coax driver has a nice little passive crossover you can use thats relatively cheap. But thats only for the coax. It does not cross into the 10-inch drivers. I'm looking at dsp but since I have no technical expertise in crossover design I'm not really looking forward to it. Do you mind posting some info about your China amps?
The MTM configuration I want has taken some time and research. The horn needs to go low enough to space the 10-inch drivers correctly - at their acoustic centers. They must be less that one wavelength apart. So I'm looking at the horn playing at around 600Hz. The coax driver has a nice little passive crossover you can use thats relatively cheap. But thats only for the coax. It does not cross into the 10-inch drivers. I'm looking at dsp but since I have no technical expertise in crossover design I'm not really looking forward to it. Do you mind posting some info about your China amps?
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My whole system costs less than one of those compression drivers. I'm not divulging anything 🙂 😱 😱 😱
I'm interested where you end up with this - it's going to be a one of a kind. 😎
I'm interested where you end up with this - it's going to be a one of a kind. 😎
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Have a look at Marani dsp amps. It's cheap and good enough. Guangzhou Seed Electronic Co., Ltd. - Speaker Management,Digital Karaoke Processor
And why BMS? You have Radian in America -- it's one of the best drivers manufacturer. They are as pricey as you like ) Btw big single diaphragm driver sounds better than coax because of it's diaphragm area. Did you see coaxials scetches? It's two narrow rings folding at high power.
And why BMS? You have Radian in America -- it's one of the best drivers manufacturer. They are as pricey as you like ) Btw big single diaphragm driver sounds better than coax because of it's diaphragm area. Did you see coaxials scetches? It's two narrow rings folding at high power.
Why BMS?
Simply, its a darn good sounding coax. Best I've heard. I was on the fence about it in the beginning because of the high cost. But, all it took was a listen and I was convinced.
I have not abandoned this. Just doing more research on cabinet design. I'm also doing some research on the miniSharc from miniDSP as a way of using FIR filters.
Simply, its a darn good sounding coax. Best I've heard. I was on the fence about it in the beginning because of the high cost. But, all it took was a listen and I was convinced.
I have not abandoned this. Just doing more research on cabinet design. I'm also doing some research on the miniSharc from miniDSP as a way of using FIR filters.
Looks like you're trying to build these, which are fantastic.
http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-210rm/
http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/noesis-3tx/
http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-210rm/
http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/noesis-3tx/
I've decided not to use the Acoustic Elegance drivers. After much research, there was some drawbacks. One of which was the FS spec, but it was mainly the weight of the driver that I began to look elsewhere. At 25 lbs a piece, they're just too heavy to use for a portable sound system. Especially since I needed 2 per cab.
@pkerb - yes something like the JTR's but in an MTM configuration.
I just got the BMS coax drivers in. I'm looking into creating a passive crossover for just these drivers. Waiting on the horns to run a test.
@pkerb - yes something like the JTR's but in an MTM configuration.
I just got the BMS coax drivers in. I'm looking into creating a passive crossover for just these drivers. Waiting on the horns to run a test.
When I am at an event which draws less than say, 150 people, I am always hoping the band doesn't have to play any louder than an un-miced drummer, that the "PA" is used only for VOCALS, and that the band is well-versed enough to balance themselves without some self-acclaimed "sound expert" screwing it all up. Guitars, keyboards, et al always sound best through their own specialized amplifier. If the "PA" need only handle the vocals, and do it WELL, then some truly outstanding results can be achieved without mega-$$$$$.
Sorry dotneck, gonna completely disagree with you here.
Yes, electric guitars sound best through guitar amps, since the amp itself is part of the instrument.
However, the 12" drivers often used in guitar amps beam like crazy in the mid/high range. The result is a laserbeam of destruction into the audience, with everyone off to the side only hearing mud.
Try it yourself - strike a chord, and then put your head on-axis with the speaker. That's what happens from one side of the audience to the other.
PA speakers are designed to spread sound evenly over the coverage area, so best practice is to mic amps (when they're part of the instrument), and put everything through the PA.
Acoustic drums are usually loud enough for smaller gigs to need minimal (if any) micing.
Keyboard amps are generally pretty awful. They're meant to provide clean reproduction of the signal from the keyboard, but rarely do. I'd recommend DIing the keyboard into the PA.
Bass amps can go either way. Sometimes the bassist is using it as a clean amp, just to make their instrument louder. Other times (particularly valve amps), the amp is part of their sound, and should be mic'd.
For me, every guitar amp gets mic'd, and every keyboard and bass gets DI'd (often taking the DI signal from the bass amp, unless the amp is part of their sound). Recently I had a gig where one bassist brought an 800w head and a 2x15" cab, in a 50-cap venue. I cabled it in, but only used the PA to fill in the mid-high range a little. Plenty of rumbly bottom end from their amp. That bassist didn't want the bassist from the other band using the amp, so I DI'd the other bass direct to the desk.
The PA was more the adequate to hack it, but a vocal-only PA would never have managed it.
Chris
Yes, electric guitars sound best through guitar amps, since the amp itself is part of the instrument.
However, the 12" drivers often used in guitar amps beam like crazy in the mid/high range. The result is a laserbeam of destruction into the audience, with everyone off to the side only hearing mud.
Try it yourself - strike a chord, and then put your head on-axis with the speaker. That's what happens from one side of the audience to the other.
PA speakers are designed to spread sound evenly over the coverage area, so best practice is to mic amps (when they're part of the instrument), and put everything through the PA.
Acoustic drums are usually loud enough for smaller gigs to need minimal (if any) micing.
Keyboard amps are generally pretty awful. They're meant to provide clean reproduction of the signal from the keyboard, but rarely do. I'd recommend DIing the keyboard into the PA.
Bass amps can go either way. Sometimes the bassist is using it as a clean amp, just to make their instrument louder. Other times (particularly valve amps), the amp is part of their sound, and should be mic'd.
For me, every guitar amp gets mic'd, and every keyboard and bass gets DI'd (often taking the DI signal from the bass amp, unless the amp is part of their sound). Recently I had a gig where one bassist brought an 800w head and a 2x15" cab, in a 50-cap venue. I cabled it in, but only used the PA to fill in the mid-high range a little. Plenty of rumbly bottom end from their amp. That bassist didn't want the bassist from the other band using the amp, so I DI'd the other bass direct to the desk.
The PA was more the adequate to hack it, but a vocal-only PA would never have managed it.
Chris
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There may be some validity to a PA overcoming some excessive guitar speaker beaming. But I sure didn't hear that when I heard Roy Buchanan play in a small club with no mic'ing. Or Freddie King, Jorma Kaukonen, JayDee Maness, Mike Bloomfield, and countless others when I heard them live.
You say keyboard amps are "generally pretty awful". I disagree. I do think that most all small-club "PAs" are terribly awful. I have rarely heard one that is decent---most I've heard are all running into audible clipping, with NO allowance for the 20 db of headroom necessary for live music. Things are getting better with the advent of high-powered, tri-amped speaker systems.
You say keyboard amps are "generally pretty awful". I disagree. I do think that most all small-club "PAs" are terribly awful. I have rarely heard one that is decent---most I've heard are all running into audible clipping, with NO allowance for the 20 db of headroom necessary for live music. Things are getting better with the advent of high-powered, tri-amped speaker systems.
Re the coaxial thing:
For weddings and other such events, you really don't WANT even dispersion!
This is not a concert, or a club. Typically, you have tables at your immediate sides, then all the way down the walls. typically they seat the old people as close to the band as possible. (just to screw with you, I swear.)
having a 6-12 db treble drop at the sides of your top speakers is just what the doctor ordered. this lets you slam the dance floor, but not kill Grandma.
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I've been using (passive, coaxial) tannoy T300's for about 20 years now, couples with Lab Gruppen amps, and they absolutely bury anything I've heard for less than 12K a pair. The phase is so tight, the sound so clean, they sound almost as good at 50' as they do right in front.
- And yes, they roll of the highs at the sides, quite a bit. So for big / outdoor events, I add two self-power speakers on the sides. Not quite an array, but close enough.
So ...
I said you want even dispersion, not necessarily wide.
The coverage angles will be up to your choice of speaker.
Chris
Semantics.
Very few decent speakers are not even in the center 50 degrees or so.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking they want / need a nice even 90 degrees, which is simply not the case at smaller events & weddings. This is worth mentioning.
Sorry if this valuable information somehow offended you. Next time I won't bother.
Very few decent speakers are not even in the center 50 degrees or so.
A lot of people make the mistake of thinking they want / need a nice even 90 degrees, which is simply not the case at smaller events & weddings. This is worth mentioning.
Sorry if this valuable information somehow offended you. Next time I won't bother.
Offended? No.
You said "For weddings and other such events, you really don't WANT even dispersion!"
You're talking about narrow vs wide dispersion.
Ideally, for any situation, you want a speaker that sounds the same within its intended coverage angles, and drops off quickly and smoothly outside. That's what I'd call even and controlled dispersion. There aren't many designs that manage it. Even the huge synergy horns lose pattern control down low, but most manage it into the hundreds of Hz just fine.
Semantics it may be, but the written word is all we have on these forums, so lets try and get it right. 😉
Chris
To the OP:
If you have no experience with passive xover design, the absolute worst thing you can do is to try and build one for a horn loaded PA speaker. The results are virtually guaranteed to be very poor.
Just bite the bullet and buy a quality 2x3 DSP box. There are plenty of good ones out there for under $800. You will end up with much better results, the sound quality will be much better and you won't blow up your expensive drivers.
If you have no experience with passive xover design, the absolute worst thing you can do is to try and build one for a horn loaded PA speaker. The results are virtually guaranteed to be very poor.
Just bite the bullet and buy a quality 2x3 DSP box. There are plenty of good ones out there for under $800. You will end up with much better results, the sound quality will be much better and you won't blow up your expensive drivers.