I'm in need of a PA for smaller intimate venues such as weddings and events with 200 people or less. Must be outstanding in sound quality.
About 10yrs ago I purchased a Bose 802 system for such events. It seemed to work well but after some usage I began to realize some of the limitations of the system. I concluded this was more of a mid-fi system that really couldn't produce certain frequencies and didn't have the impact of a true high fidelity system. At times, even at moderate power levels I could hear artifacts in the sound. That was concerning.
I'm starting to line up events for next year and want to improve my sound system. I want to stay away from off-the-shelf systems and build a high fidelity PA using high quality drivers. I also have a personal vocal issue - voice too low. Speakers with good midrange would be helpful.
This PA idea consists of two mid/high tops and a subwoofer. I'd like to tackle the mid/high tops first. I've read thru some forums and have seen some great combinations of drivers. Following are some ideas:
Three-Way (mid/high/mid-bass)
- (x1) BMS 4594 mid/high coax coupled to an Eighteen Sound XT1464 horn
- (x2) Acoustic Elegance TD10M 10-inch drivers
The problem I have with this setup is even tho the AE drivers have some pretty good specs, I don't know if they're made for the rigors of PA use. Their EBP is approx 154 which, for a 10-inch, seems to indicate a pretty strong motor. It also has a high BL. The BMS 4594 is difficult to attain in the US.
Three-Way Coax
- (x1) B&C DCM50 2-inch compression midrange (needs a horn, SEOS?)
- (x2) 10-inch coax drivers with 1-inch high frequency
Coax drivers are new to me, but it seems some select companies are using them for compact PAs (Danley, Fulcrum). Need some input on this.
About 10yrs ago I purchased a Bose 802 system for such events. It seemed to work well but after some usage I began to realize some of the limitations of the system. I concluded this was more of a mid-fi system that really couldn't produce certain frequencies and didn't have the impact of a true high fidelity system. At times, even at moderate power levels I could hear artifacts in the sound. That was concerning.
I'm starting to line up events for next year and want to improve my sound system. I want to stay away from off-the-shelf systems and build a high fidelity PA using high quality drivers. I also have a personal vocal issue - voice too low. Speakers with good midrange would be helpful.
This PA idea consists of two mid/high tops and a subwoofer. I'd like to tackle the mid/high tops first. I've read thru some forums and have seen some great combinations of drivers. Following are some ideas:
Three-Way (mid/high/mid-bass)
- (x1) BMS 4594 mid/high coax coupled to an Eighteen Sound XT1464 horn
- (x2) Acoustic Elegance TD10M 10-inch drivers
The problem I have with this setup is even tho the AE drivers have some pretty good specs, I don't know if they're made for the rigors of PA use. Their EBP is approx 154 which, for a 10-inch, seems to indicate a pretty strong motor. It also has a high BL. The BMS 4594 is difficult to attain in the US.
Three-Way Coax
- (x1) B&C DCM50 2-inch compression midrange (needs a horn, SEOS?)
- (x2) 10-inch coax drivers with 1-inch high frequency
Coax drivers are new to me, but it seems some select companies are using them for compact PAs (Danley, Fulcrum). Need some input on this.
Attachments
If using of such a hi-end components is profitable for you, the first variant is good enough. TD10M looks like a proper 8" bass speaker with a small sensitivity. In this config it's usable up to 400-500Hz with 4594 if you want a stable directivity so you have to take as big hf-horn as you can find for such a low crossover point.
But I think 4594 has too much power to be used with TD10M. IMHO it's better to find some 10" speakers with higher sesnsitivity and power.
But I think 4594 has too much power to be used with TD10M. IMHO it's better to find some 10" speakers with higher sesnsitivity and power.
Oh sorry, my mistake. It's as sensitive as all other small woofers. But for me 500W is not enough. Meybe if you are able to use it with subs it's better to replace this woofers with high sensitivity midbass having fs=60-70Hz. But it can easily work with 2.5-3" coil drivers for hi-fi quality.
With two coax 10" drivers in one unit you'll get a massive interference. All coax drivers have a lot of problems with dispersion because of confines in horn construction. Drivers without horns have massive intermodulation distotrions on high power levels. So they are usable only in monitors or small reflex pa for translations or smth.
With two coax 10" drivers in one unit you'll get a massive interference. All coax drivers have a lot of problems with dispersion because of confines in horn construction. Drivers without horns have massive intermodulation distotrions on high power levels. So they are usable only in monitors or small reflex pa for translations or smth.
A B&C 10FW64 was on my list of drivers. fs=63. Power handling is not that high, but sensitivity is around 98dB. The EBP is 252. Would do well as a mid-bass. The B&C 10MD26 driver has a 100dB sensitivity and has a higher power handling, but I wasn't sure about the fs.
98 or 100db is not that important. The only point is the measurement frequency ) Look at the graphs and the inductance value. If you're going to use it with subs it's ok to have fs up to 85Hz and cut-off freq about 100-120Hz, but depending on type of sub you're using. Just have in mind that in such a config you're really don't need coaxial driver. Every good 2.5"-3" v.c. driver is usable for such a config with very good result compared to weak 1". Coaxial is needed in big system with low crossover point and high power.
Take a look at the 12-15" coaxials from B&C, Beyma, Ciare, etc. When properly implemented(crossover) they'll give you fantastic sound at high spl. I use a Ciare 12" and it sounds very natural with great detail.
What DSP and amps are you planning to use?
What DSP and amps are you planning to use?
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I was planning to use a miniDsp. Still kinda looking into that. I'd rather find a nice plate amp with built in dsp. Also considered a Crown XTi.
Not sure what your budget is but those QSC DSP amps look pretty nice as well.
One thing I will mention is that powered pa speakers have become very competitive in recent years. You will need measurement gear and a pretty good grasp of what your looking at in order to match the performance of Yamaha, QSC, JBL, EV, etc.
One thing I will mention is that powered pa speakers have become very competitive in recent years. You will need measurement gear and a pretty good grasp of what your looking at in order to match the performance of Yamaha, QSC, JBL, EV, etc.
Coaxials directivity on 14-16kHz -6db isn't more 30-35deg. I can't understand how it could be usable as a qualitative PA.
+1.. you will have a lot of work ahead of you just to match the performance of a Yamaha DSR112 for example, one of the cleanest sounding PA boxes available at this retail price or less. But I understand this is a DIY site and people want to build something themselves so I'll share what I have experienced with my own DIY projects. You can get very good results with high quality drivers and external DSP processing, a dual 10" + 2" cab with all neo drivers could be very light and capable of very high output and sound quality, but you will spend many hours with a test mic and measurement software getting that result after you have built the thing. 2" exit compression drivers can sound very good but to get the most out of them you will need to actively power and process them. To minimize the size of these cabs consider making them sealed especially if they will never be used without subs. Yes you should be able to replicate the active results with a passive crossover but you will spend many many many more hours readjusting the passive network again and again to reach that goal, subtle changes sometimes make dramatic improvements.
In my early DIY days my best sounding PA cabs were 3 ways with a cone mid, I never liked the sound of the mid horns found in cabs like the klipsch Lascalla at war volume, but since then I have been hands on with better quality 2" exit drivers and at any sane output level they can be very musical... with appropriate processing of course.
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@conanski
To be honest I'm not too experienced with DIY. Spending hours and possibly days to try and get the sound right is somewhat discouraging. Not really what I want to do, but I do know it will take some effort. The BMS 4594 1.4-inch mid/high coax I want to use is a very high quality driver. Which also makes it very expensive. I think if I invest the money I'll be determined to make the drivers sound right. I may be leaning toward some of the better amp/dsp combo's from Crown and QSC.
I'm always looking around to see if anyone has built something similar to what I need. Suggestions are more than welcomed and will save me some headaches.
To be honest I'm not too experienced with DIY. Spending hours and possibly days to try and get the sound right is somewhat discouraging. Not really what I want to do, but I do know it will take some effort. The BMS 4594 1.4-inch mid/high coax I want to use is a very high quality driver. Which also makes it very expensive. I think if I invest the money I'll be determined to make the drivers sound right. I may be leaning toward some of the better amp/dsp combo's from Crown and QSC.
I'm always looking around to see if anyone has built something similar to what I need. Suggestions are more than welcomed and will save me some headaches.
Well, let's see. 40x50 -- it's marketing lies. I bet they mean 40x50 -12db. Did you hear -12db? It's ok, nobody hears. Btw they can use some oem horns, but the geometry of speaker cone dictates it's rules in horn construction. You may like it or not, but coax speakers are designed for monitors and translations. Not for PA.
Sorry, but no.
Lots of very successful designs have been based on coaxial speakers. Have a look at the Danley SM80.
The coaxial unit here is a compression driver, where two diaphragms are driving the same horn. One is larger, and good for around 600Hz IIRC. The other is smaller, and covers out to 20kHz smoothly.
Chris
You might be interested in this.
https://soundforums.net/forum/low-earth-orbit/diy-audio/11601-new-diy-mid-high
https://soundforums.net/forum/low-earth-orbit/diy-audio/11601-new-diy-mid-high
chris661, I'm talking about dispersion. It must be wide enough and uniform. Uniform is a keyword. You can't reach the uniform dispersion with 10-12cm (depth of 12" speaker") long round horn with long (about 1/2 of total length) almost straight throat like in coaxials.
Btw 4" coild driver on the horn 10-15cm long will play 1000-1500Hz -3db, not 600Hz. To play 600Hz -3db 30-40cm long horn is needed.
Btw 4" coild driver on the horn 10-15cm long will play 1000-1500Hz -3db, not 600Hz. To play 600Hz -3db 30-40cm long horn is needed.
No processing, 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94 horn. ~15cm long. See attachments.
I suspect you're using classical horn maths, which might not apply to modern constant-directivity horns that use a combination of flare rates.
I'll let you have a look at the Danley SM80 in your own time. It uses a 12" coaxial mounted in a shallow horn, and shows pretty good directivity characteristics.
Chris
PS - sorry about the OT.
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Not bad for a shor conical horn which RCF HF94 is an ) Man, i know what is cd, i'm 32 not 70 )
Look there's the only way to resolve our dispute (is it correct phrase?): try to measure the dispersion of any coaxial speaker and try to listen to your 18Sound ND1460 + RCF HF94 crossed at 600Hz. I have done both, but your expirience can be different. Btw i see 600Hz -10db not -3.
The only manufacturer honestly showing the dispersion graphs is B&C, just take a look at it. For example B&C Speakers I think it's bloodcurdling isn't it? But it's normal for such horns, everybody knows it using coax only for monitors. I believe Danley's horns are ok. But we are the ordinary guys, who can't make 5-6 oem coax drivers just for tests.
What is OT? My Englisch isn't good enough.
Look there's the only way to resolve our dispute (is it correct phrase?): try to measure the dispersion of any coaxial speaker and try to listen to your 18Sound ND1460 + RCF HF94 crossed at 600Hz. I have done both, but your expirience can be different. Btw i see 600Hz -10db not -3.
The only manufacturer honestly showing the dispersion graphs is B&C, just take a look at it. For example B&C Speakers I think it's bloodcurdling isn't it? But it's normal for such horns, everybody knows it using coax only for monitors. I believe Danley's horns are ok. But we are the ordinary guys, who can't make 5-6 oem coax drivers just for tests.
What is OT? My Englisch isn't good enough.