Sad to see that this thread has mostly become a SS vs tubes discussion when that was not the intention.
Yes, but how are DIYers without access to measuring equipment (like e.g. an Audio Precision) going to know if they built something that reproduces the original signal identicallly?
Listening alone will only tell you wether you like the sound or not. I think the way different people hear is as unique as fingerprints. No one hears alike, and therefore ears-alone approach is never going to be objective.
Yes, but it's the end result that counts. If different topologies would have the same end-result they would end up sounding the same. In reality, that's not going to happen, even two identical amps will sound different because of the tolerances of the components.
Because, face it, what sound I like will differ from what you like and therefore I might not like that amp at all. This has nothing to do with HiFi, it has to do with personal preferences.
Prejudices, for one, will keep people from looking in the other direction.
Theoretically I'd agree. In reality they don't exist.
I tend to believe that we can hear more than we think, but that this also varies from person to person. I know that I am very sensitive to phase shifts between channels, but I also know of someone who can't hear the difference between speakers connected in-phase or out-of-phase.
Good point. I too think speakers have way more effect on the sound than anything else. See it like an instrument, the sound of every instrument is determined by its harmonics.
And lets not forget about acoustics. Your living room will never sound like a music hall or any other differently shaped space.
To me reproduced music is like an approximation of the real thing at best. "HiFi" may be accurate when it comes to electrical signals, IMHO it doesn't when acoustics are concerned. I wonder if the distortion introduced by speakers and acoustics wouldn't simply render some of the distortion of the electronics irrelevant when decent equipment is concerned.
I am looking for something that sounds pleasing to my particular hearing, nothing more, nothing less. The way how that is achieved is totally irrelevant to me.
Yes, but how are DIYers without access to measuring equipment (like e.g. an Audio Precision) going to know if they built something that reproduces the original signal identicallly?
Listening alone will only tell you wether you like the sound or not. I think the way different people hear is as unique as fingerprints. No one hears alike, and therefore ears-alone approach is never going to be objective.
Yes, but it's the end result that counts. If different topologies would have the same end-result they would end up sounding the same. In reality, that's not going to happen, even two identical amps will sound different because of the tolerances of the components.
Because, face it, what sound I like will differ from what you like and therefore I might not like that amp at all. This has nothing to do with HiFi, it has to do with personal preferences.
Prejudices, for one, will keep people from looking in the other direction.
Theoretically I'd agree. In reality they don't exist.
I tend to believe that we can hear more than we think, but that this also varies from person to person. I know that I am very sensitive to phase shifts between channels, but I also know of someone who can't hear the difference between speakers connected in-phase or out-of-phase.
Good point. I too think speakers have way more effect on the sound than anything else. See it like an instrument, the sound of every instrument is determined by its harmonics.
And lets not forget about acoustics. Your living room will never sound like a music hall or any other differently shaped space.
To me reproduced music is like an approximation of the real thing at best. "HiFi" may be accurate when it comes to electrical signals, IMHO it doesn't when acoustics are concerned. I wonder if the distortion introduced by speakers and acoustics wouldn't simply render some of the distortion of the electronics irrelevant when decent equipment is concerned.
I am looking for something that sounds pleasing to my particular hearing, nothing more, nothing less. The way how that is achieved is totally irrelevant to me.
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You wonder correctly. Add microphones as well. Then we're left with the 500 pound gorilla, the paradigm of stereo.
1) Never seen or heard a cheap tubed clockradio so I can't say.
2) Agreed but a guitar amp is part of the instrument so with regards to HiFi reproduction this point is very moot.
3) I never heard any small amp that sounds good regardless of tubes or ss.
4) See 2)
5) Agreed
and additionally 6) Pick a 100w+ HiFi amp, one tubed one SS, SS wins easy.
I always say to non-audiophiles.
"Take your ears shopping".
At the end of the day, Your music system is just something that you listen to.
If you like the sound - Buy It.
"Take your ears shopping".
At the end of the day, Your music system is just something that you listen to.
If you like the sound - Buy It.
You've never heard a good ~20wpc amp?? Too bad.
As far as guitar not being HiFi is missing the point.
A guitar amp is be part of the instrument, but why not use SS as part of the instrument if it's SO good.????
Tubes reproduce the sound in a more desirable way, it does not add the harshness that SS does, sounds more musical,...hmm....wait a minute, this is starting to sound a lot like a HiFi....
It's the clipping or the way an Tooob amp clips that you like, especially on guitar amplifiers..
More accurately would be to say I don't like how SS amps breakup, or even sound, clean or distorted.
Even from the point of view of a clean channel, or say playing acoustic with levels set not to clip. Tubes seem to impact the sound less, SS will impart a very sterile sound in most situations.
One could say that SS colours the sound. 😉
So it's not very different at all when you look at it.
The goal is to reproduce analog sounds, so the softer attack of tubes lends itself to a more organic sound.
A stereo system is nothing more than an air pump in reality.
What we hear is air pressure waves and how the cone is interacting with it.
IMO SS takes more work to to sound natural, or smooth if you will.
A strong point of SS is bass, where the faster, stronger attack of SS helps to over come the loss in fidelity that a heavy woofer cone makes.
I should add that I don't "hate" SS, obviously there are nice sounding SS amps.
Plus the efficiency, compactness and portability of SS goes a long way.
Even from the point of view of a clean channel, or say playing acoustic with levels set not to clip. Tubes seem to impact the sound less, SS will impart a very sterile sound in most situations.
One could say that SS colours the sound. 😉
So it's not very different at all when you look at it.
The goal is to reproduce analog sounds, so the softer attack of tubes lends itself to a more organic sound.
A stereo system is nothing more than an air pump in reality.
What we hear is air pressure waves and how the cone is interacting with it.
IMO SS takes more work to to sound natural, or smooth if you will.
A strong point of SS is bass, where the faster, stronger attack of SS helps to over come the loss in fidelity that a heavy woofer cone makes.
I should add that I don't "hate" SS, obviously there are nice sounding SS amps.
Plus the efficiency, compactness and portability of SS goes a long way.
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wasnt the key to early rock music, that they found what happened when heavily overdriving common tubeamps
and thought it sounded good
but I think its changing at the moment
new SS 'effect' designs seems to also make nice distortion, and lots of it 😀
but also digital distortion effects might be marching in at the moment
yeah, hifi is a strange thing 🙄
I think you are listening to the wrong SS amps, i do agree there are SS amps with those sonics , most notably Bryston's ( early) as there are really bad sounding tube amps ( dead , bloated slob of a sound) couple bad electronics to bad speakers and ..... well disaster...🙄
I have heard the so ( at that time) called best of the best, both tubes and SS and i have had or owned a few of them in my own system, over the years, there is none with the advantages you describe or relish on tubes..
Both topologies do things different , both have faults both require specific setups and applications, very rarely will you get good results from a tube amp when the system is optimized for SS or vice versa.
My leanings is for SS, i find on dynamic large scale complex music SS is much better, toobs are magical on single voices simple stuff, where they have a better sense of realism , around voices and single instruments, not so when the going get tough..
Yes one aspect of why they are preferred is the way they break up or distort. It's pleasing to the ears-you can use this to your advantage in HiFI 😉
SS "effect" designs are nothing new, digital effects are nothing new either. It's the same situation here, the odd one sounds OK, even a few good ones. Then there is the other 95% that are not so good.
You can try it sometime, easy experiment with something like a Stealth Plug and Amplitube live installed on your PC. It's fun to tinker with at first, then it's like "meh". Sounds even worse at higher levels, lot's of noise. It takes a good processor to do digital effects in realtime. It brings with it more negatives like noise, pops, dropouts and sounds digital or "robotic".
Or you can try some of the many SS "Distortion pedals". All kinds off tricks there to try and simulate "tube" sounds using softer clipping germanium diodes. The odd one is OK and can sound even better if plugged into a tube amp.
One of my favorite pedals is a Mesa Boogie clone (SS) pedal. IMO is about as good as you can get sound wise with SS. (Unless someone bests it)
It is has the same layout as a Mesa preamp, but with transistors. Good comparison.
gaussmarkov: diy fx Dr. Boogey
Dr Boogie Demo - YouTube
Then after that, you can hear the real thing which IMO sounds more gooder, lol, less forced and robotic sounding.
Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier - Metal/Rock - YouTube
SS "effect" designs are nothing new, digital effects are nothing new either. It's the same situation here, the odd one sounds OK, even a few good ones. Then there is the other 95% that are not so good.
You can try it sometime, easy experiment with something like a Stealth Plug and Amplitube live installed on your PC. It's fun to tinker with at first, then it's like "meh". Sounds even worse at higher levels, lot's of noise. It takes a good processor to do digital effects in realtime. It brings with it more negatives like noise, pops, dropouts and sounds digital or "robotic".
Or you can try some of the many SS "Distortion pedals". All kinds off tricks there to try and simulate "tube" sounds using softer clipping germanium diodes. The odd one is OK and can sound even better if plugged into a tube amp.
One of my favorite pedals is a Mesa Boogie clone (SS) pedal. IMO is about as good as you can get sound wise with SS. (Unless someone bests it)
It is has the same layout as a Mesa preamp, but with transistors. Good comparison.
gaussmarkov: diy fx Dr. Boogey
Dr Boogie Demo - YouTube
Then after that, you can hear the real thing which IMO sounds more gooder, lol, less forced and robotic sounding.
Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier - Metal/Rock - YouTube
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This was a pleasure to read, it was thoughtful, personal and insightful.
It very much mirrors my views but in a different way.
Try this output stage (I already attached it yesterday) like on this schemo. It sounds very tubey. I designed it in order to fix a guitar amp with blown up output transformer.
Attachments
nope, Id go get the sony boombox and sit in the fully tiled bathroom. aaah echo.. echo. echo
SY is right, stadium sound is a battle at best. I like to zone the heck out of them and bounce the reflections skyward.
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In my Hifi journey, I decided at the age of 25 I would buy all super high quality 2nd hand gear. Forked out 16 thousand in a personal loan and had myself some Duntech Princess (John Dunlavy designed) 2nd only to the "Most accurate speakers in the world" (after the duntech sovereign) A Krell KSA 150 Pure class A amp and a Classe Audio DR4 pre amp.
Anyone into Hifi was impressed with this setup when I mentioned it and I was a little bit chuffed at my smart thinking. Shortly after I was conned into buying a Denon DVD5000 - top of the line DVD player with 3 separate power supplies and awesome 2 channel audio output.
I was living large was a year in a big warehouse in the city and feeling sweet. Until I had to move.
Into 3.5m x 3.5m federation house where the wooden floorboards created an acoustic guitar feel and the system just sounded completely wrong. The speakers are only the most accurate in the world if they are in the right room. If not they are completely terrible! The Denon Lemon ended up breaking down 3 times but worked fine when it went back to the shop. In the time I have owned it, it has gone back 11 times (Mostly under warranty.)
The krell amp runs hot - too hot. I had to run a fan on it -killed the sound - drained my pockets in electricity bills and then blew up. Took it back to the importer to repair it as I didn't know anyone else who could fix such an amp. The fault was such that it had to be completely rebuilt, every output transistor every capacitor. It took over a year and cost $2000.
The speakers, being young and wanting to impress myself and others I blew bass drivers (all 4) two separate times. Later the whole rig was stored with a mate as I had moved interstate and had no place for them. My mate had a party and literally cooked the xo's and the 4 bass drivers again. A full rebuild costing $3400.
I have an amazing system on paper:
I lived in a care takers apartment on the 7th floor of a building in the city - next to the elevator motor. The system suffered huge amounts of interference and suffered from a poor room.
I have moved 11 times while owning it. Speakers weigh over 100kgs, amp 45kg etc.
I have only ever had them in 1 nice room.
One could say I am a fool in my journey and true enough I have made plenty of mistakes but I am not smart enough to build it myself so I compromised.
I would like to compromise just enough to actually sit and listen to music for a while.
I'll have to wait to the amp comes back from the repairer for the 3rd time.
Anyone into Hifi was impressed with this setup when I mentioned it and I was a little bit chuffed at my smart thinking. Shortly after I was conned into buying a Denon DVD5000 - top of the line DVD player with 3 separate power supplies and awesome 2 channel audio output.
I was living large was a year in a big warehouse in the city and feeling sweet. Until I had to move.
Into 3.5m x 3.5m federation house where the wooden floorboards created an acoustic guitar feel and the system just sounded completely wrong. The speakers are only the most accurate in the world if they are in the right room. If not they are completely terrible! The Denon Lemon ended up breaking down 3 times but worked fine when it went back to the shop. In the time I have owned it, it has gone back 11 times (Mostly under warranty.)
The krell amp runs hot - too hot. I had to run a fan on it -killed the sound - drained my pockets in electricity bills and then blew up. Took it back to the importer to repair it as I didn't know anyone else who could fix such an amp. The fault was such that it had to be completely rebuilt, every output transistor every capacitor. It took over a year and cost $2000.
The speakers, being young and wanting to impress myself and others I blew bass drivers (all 4) two separate times. Later the whole rig was stored with a mate as I had moved interstate and had no place for them. My mate had a party and literally cooked the xo's and the 4 bass drivers again. A full rebuild costing $3400.
I have an amazing system on paper:
I lived in a care takers apartment on the 7th floor of a building in the city - next to the elevator motor. The system suffered huge amounts of interference and suffered from a poor room.
I have moved 11 times while owning it. Speakers weigh over 100kgs, amp 45kg etc.
I have only ever had them in 1 nice room.
One could say I am a fool in my journey and true enough I have made plenty of mistakes but I am not smart enough to build it myself so I compromised.
I would like to compromise just enough to actually sit and listen to music for a while.
I'll have to wait to the amp comes back from the repairer for the 3rd time.
Speaking of trash cans... Gu-50 tubes that I use in my Pyramids look exactly as trash cans. Be they in the bulbs of phallic symbol form, they would be 10-20 times more expensive. 😀
The impression often given is that an amplifier is an analyser/re-synthesiser which splits the incoming signal into its constituent harmonically-constructed waveforms, tweaks the levels of the harmonics (i.e. to add a bit of second harmonic 'musicality') and then re-synthesises the output. If this were true, the ear (and/or an audio analyser) could still separate the individual sources perfectly. Isn't it the actual case that 'harmonic' distortion is only harmonic for a single tone, and that for a waveform of multiple non-harmonically related sources, distortion smears them all together so that they cannot again be separated cleanly?
I think that when I am struck by the 'hi fi' sound, it is mainly due to the fact that the sound of one instrument in an orchestra, say, is completely unaffected by what the others are doing. I find it hard to believe that a high level of distortion of any kind could survive the 'hi fi' listening test. I can believe that for a given level, some types of 'harmonic' distortion are more or less objectionable to the ear than others, but this would be like assessing the best type of fuzz for a guitar, not 'hi fi'.
Tu-600 amplifiers on Russian stadiums used GM-70 or GK-71 output tubes. They were used with horn speakers (50W compression drivers with aluminum waveguides about 1 meter long).
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