Agree that THD ratio is not the end of all, and my current SS amp
has relatively high distorsion compared to many famed amps
that hang by there , yet , the overall perfs are way beyond
what can be obtained with tubes.
So yes, THD is not all , and in this respect , in any parameter
that can be measured , SS amps are largely better.
My uneducated reply is yes, you will hear a difference, absolutely there is a difference.
SS gear will usually have better "numbers" but sound worse.
Low distortion does not always mean better sounding by default. There is much more going on.
No. Lower THD and high DF numbers do not mean lower distortions. And if to combine all existing SS amps and calculate average distortion numbers, then combine all existing tube amps and calculate average distortion numbers, I am pretty sure tubes will definitely win, not only because no tubes in cellphones, car players, TVs, etc, but because real melomans prefer tube amps, so more of effort goes to their design than to design of cheap mass production receivers.
Not bad at all if it s tubology based , but not good enough
to match the Compact Disc standard at -96 dB.
Still on track for LP reproduction purposes.....
Wow! Although I would put myself at the objectivist end of the spectrum, I would not make a claim like this. Do you mean can be measured in principle, or is currently part of the usual set of measurements?wahab said:
I would guess that a typical valve amp is likely to be better at ignoring RF interference than many SS amps. In many cases a valve amp will have smaller amounts of very high order distortion, especially when expressed as a proportion of total distortion.
You are wrong again. typical tube amps before closing of feedback loops have much higher frequency response than typical solid state amps before closing of feedback loops.
Typical subjectivist argument...
In short , dont count all very bad tube amplifiers that were built
for non hifi purposes , but count all the SS general purpose ones,
including the low power low fi ones...
Is that how you compute an "average"...?...🙄
No. Typical tube amps have lower DF than typical SS amps, only because tube amps are already more linear than typical SS amps before feedback loop is closed. That means, typical SS amps require deeper feedback loop to minimize nasty distortion, that (if it is feedback by voltage) leads to enormously high DF. Actually, DF more than 10 is meaningless.
The same numbers do not mean the same distortions. Like, the same average temperatures of patients of different clinics. Yes, it is possible to make SS amps with such low audible distortions, but it requires much more of work and knowledge than in case of tubes.
If you do a direct comparsion, apples to apples, tubes sound better.
Pick a cheap clock radio, one is tubed, one is SS - tubes win.
Pick a cheap guitar amp, one is tubed, one is SS - tubes win.
Pick a modest 20wpc stereo amp, one is tubed, one is SS - tubes win.
Pick a 100w guitar amp, one tubed, one SS - tubes win.
Pick a 10w table top radio, one tubed, one SS - tubes win.
See a pattern starting to develop?
Pick a cheap clock radio, one is tubed, one is SS - tubes win.
Pick a cheap guitar amp, one is tubed, one is SS - tubes win.
Pick a modest 20wpc stereo amp, one is tubed, one is SS - tubes win.
Pick a 100w guitar amp, one tubed, one SS - tubes win.
Pick a 10w table top radio, one tubed, one SS - tubes win.
See a pattern starting to develop?
I want a compact disk that produces 40W of power with -80 dB of 2'nd order distortions!
😀
I wonder if any of you have seen a sensivity curve of an average human ear?
If so, Then compare it to a curve of a Hi fi amp, Tube or SS and maybe it all comes down to individual taste, Not so much distortion levels.
If so, Then compare it to a curve of a Hi fi amp, Tube or SS and maybe it all comes down to individual taste, Not so much distortion levels.
Unless we must take account of a nuclear device electromagnetic pulse,
this is quite of lesser importance.
We are talking of properly designed amps , dont we ?..
That s not due to an intrinsical quality of the tubes but is a result
of the way they are designed.
This is mainly due to tube amps having higher iddle consumption,
thus they will often be in class A mode at powers at wich class AB
amps are already out of it.
Increase the SS power devices compsumation up to the one
of a PP tube stage and tell me wich one produce less high
order harmonics....😉
I doubt so very much. When people show subconscious reaction on one sounds as if they are real, but say "Nice reproduction" about other sounds, it is not about individual tastes. It is about belief, what is true, what is reproduced.
Or, if you close eyes and can easily imagine yourself in concert hall, or can't imagine in your concert hall, but hear speakers and amps, it is not about individual tastes.
And if we could measure "sensitivity curve" directly I am pretty sure somebody would already patent a DSP-based thingy called "Ultimate Amp" 😀
I would call that fidelity to the signal, yes. A worthy goal, for sure - and one which will take you a long way in the quest for sonic happiness. But it's not the whole picture.
For years I worshiped at the "Temple of the Pure Signal" because I believed it to be the one true path to sonic bliss, the fast track to a higher audio plane.
But world is a messy place full of music, sounds, ears and brains. It's not as simple as the cult wants us to believe. Yes, I've lost my faith.
I still respect the cult of the pure signal, I tip my hat or bow when I pass the temple, but I no longer believe. It's a good approach and a simple way of life, but it's not for me.
Why? Because signal purity isn't the only thing that counts. We don't sense the world in a pure, linear way. If we did, the study of psychoacoustics would not exist. Just as a photograph is a pale imitation of the real thing, so are audio recordings. To make up for their lack of life, we often prefer them enhanced. It's human nature.
Beside that there are things that matter and things that don't. Since no system is perfect, we have to choose which flaws we can live with and which we can't. And what happens if one flaw balances out another - at least subjectively? Not good for the pure signal cult, but maybe good for the ears.
You can count me in the "Feet up in front of the tubes" camp. Ultimately I want my system to sound as much like real music and musical instruments as possible. I want fidelity to the sound - because that's what I listen to. A pure signal is a good tool for getting there, but not the only tool. Life isn't that simple, nor is audio.
Does that further your discussion or answer any of your questions?
No, the modern world is full of electromagnetic pollution at many different frequencies - unless you live literally in the middle of nowhere.wahab said:
Now you seem to be admitting my point, but diverting the argument to internal mechanisms. Of course there are reasons why valves tend to be more linear. It is not 'intrinsic quality' (whatever that means) but device physics, such as 3/2 power law vs. exponential law. In addition, the scale differs: valve grids work on the scale of a few volts, BJT bases work on the scale of 40mV.
sorry but that is just typical biassed subjective drivel framed as fact, sure its being used to combat its SS enemy, but it has absolutely no basis in anything but your reality
me; i swing both ways as i agree that when it comes down to it everything is indeed subjective, but at the same time i value human endeavour and do think measurements should indeed be a good part of the equation.
so while numbers arent everything till we have all the information, that doesnt however make your above statements any more than personal opinion
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I want a compact disk that produces 40W of power with -80 dB of 2'nd order distortions!
😀
There s none , since the sound chain has produced more THD
before the CD was "pressed" , but then , this added THD is part
of the signal our amps must reproduce without adding more of
this distorsion.
The fact that recordings include high levels of THD must not
be an opportunistic excuse to downplay the importance of this parameter.
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