we are after Excellent stuff here 😉
Interesting to note, pls let us know of the outcomes of these external DACs
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Ok, go for these and let us know. Maybe even others can try out also. Hopefully better that what you already have as reference ☺️
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So much choice ! All at the 200 euros, I should re read the datasheet first to understand the different chips and brand. Should take enough time for the next generation to pop up... ES4500 & AK9040 
😀
😀Soon in 40 years people will look at es4500 like vintage stuff amazed that even microchip existed, everything will be in some cloud and you will own nothing 🙂 everything will be on daily subscriptions and people will shop for 'upgraded' ai applications haha.
There will probably one day a reference to deep class AB !!! or transistor sound 🙁 , as everyone will have some DSD 1 millions of bit applications....
I find... that the Chinese make excellent re-issues of vintage chips. For the braves and willing to find small mistakes in the designs. I strongly encourage to look into older dacs... back to listening music, great to exchange with everyone, incredibly nice and smart community.
There will probably one day a reference to deep class AB !!! or transistor sound 🙁 , as everyone will have some DSD 1 millions of bit applications....
I find... that the Chinese make excellent re-issues of vintage chips. For the braves and willing to find small mistakes in the designs. I strongly encourage to look into older dacs... back to listening music, great to exchange with everyone, incredibly nice and smart community.
Mind you, they will all come back to tapes and Sony Walkman purchased at Vinted with suncell hat of Apple to power it !
also promoted having two chips in these products but I don’t think they are configured as dual mono for any better performance… datasheet can be one thing but implementation counts also. As I see it, single chip implementations will be just as good and possibly cheaper.
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Because with its Ethernet/WiFI connection it allows you bitperfect from Android and Chromebook to the DACs.
Android Tablet/phone + WiiM Ultra + USB-DAC
is the same cost as
PC + USB-DAC
and since I already have the android tablets/phone/chromebooks, it's way cheaper than spending 900 bucks on an i5 laptop.
And the built in DAC is good enough as 2ch in the home theater too...
IMHO, I'd rather see a WiiM bridge only, but then the volume would drop and the price would be the same as putting in a DAC.
Of course, if Android and Chromebook ever get their USB fixed... then I wouldn't be in this discussion... I could get a cheap Chinese (Mind you, I already have two cheap Chinese units.... ) or a non so cheap US made DAC and be happy all day
Hmm.. I think I've answered this question four times already... "Why use WiiM Ultra as bridge"
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Here we are looking for something Excellent that can be used for the main system. So how does the Ultra compare with your other references, close or crap?
Yet more OT posts removed.
I think at the beginning, all in one box made more sense except for the true High End that went to heroics and stratopheric prices... using AT&T fiber and optics instead of plastic and copper. Most of the interfaces, including USB1, included the clock in the bit stream so it was actually better not to do the conversion for transmission (S/PDIF) and to keep the bitstream within the box.
I think it was Meridian (it was a British manufacturer) that in the late 90s put in a RAM buffer in their CD player and then used different clocks to write into the RAM and to read from RAM to the DAC. It sounded pretty good, but I didn't buy it because I already had a Sony ES player. Actually, my LD player which was an awesomely stable CD player! Imagine a beefy laserdisc player just spinning a light CD...
So, as you note, it never made much technical sense to split the signal into S/PDIF across two boxes.. However, at some point, CD players become conveniences, USB2 chips cheap and DAC prices dropped. So, the two box solution... or even PC based came to be dominant in the entry level market.
Multichannel for movies is another problem. It's all about the licensing for Dolby, DTS, Dirac, etc... Trust me, it's a PITA, I've been looking for just an audio only surround decoder that won't go obsolete when HDMI 1.45v23 with zycERAC comes out. Turns out they don't make it. The big AVRs are crappy sounding but made by big corporations that get good deals from the studios.. you pay for those logos on the front panel.
Even so, I had my Sony LD hooked up to a Sony EP9ES decoder and I could play DTS, Dolby and CDs through the decoder. But that was a unique unit.
The two box solution today makes some serious sense... the Linsoul Kiwi Ears Allegro Mini Portable DAC, at 25 bucks, that i got from Amazon is an example of a pretty good sounding CHEAP CHINESE DAC. I use it on my phone, hooked up to USB-C and my IEMs when I want mobile sounds. They got more up the chain, but they're all mostly sealed as they are so small... I mean, they are tiny.
( Note: did the moderators remove that post about the Linsoul DAC? I got no clue what they've been doing... but it is the cheapest DAC that anyone has brought up and it is Chinese... ).
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BTW, there's an update that does DSD... for 54 bucks., in Amazon...
Linsoul Kiwi Ears Allegro Pro Upgraded IEM Earphone DAC/AMP
Is 54 bucks still inexpensive enough?
Linsoul Kiwi Ears Allegro Pro Upgraded IEM Earphone DAC/AMP
Is 54 bucks still inexpensive enough?
Internal of course as extensively explained as the 2 box model is IMHO silly in normal stereo audio where the streaming device has multifunctional tasks. EMI/RF measured. Nothing public either, this time I have no interest in selling and distributing. Already did that. Besides that it may very well be that next month a digital audio player will be introduced that has ES9039Q2M internally and is both affordable and very good. A WiiM Ultra 2 🙂
I wouldn't know what happens if someone publishes such a simple to build project today. With the current friendly DAC Meister bunch the project likely will be burned down to the ground.
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apart from the ES9038Q2M chip the Ultra has a cheaply synthesised master clock from the LinkPlay A98 module inside. so even a change of dac chip may not be enough. Hopefully they will put some good quality audio XOs.
Look forward to your progress… I have plans for a partially assembled board (9039q2m) for diy use so maybe I can send you a free sample for evaluation when ready. FYI, this is not a Chinese dac so better to start another thread🙂
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If you look carefully how it is build, what it costs and then have a look at other devices you will notice such as it is a low budget device big time. It is the food at some cheap sleazy restaurant that turns out to be one of the better meals you ever had in your life.
You guys simply had the luck that you bought a cheapo that performs. In the past 20 or more years I tried out various and some were pretty unimpressive. They all were more expensive I think. WiiM Ultra is the best proof that pretty good/excellent inexpensive 1 box Chinese audio exists! Any of endeavors of external DAC DIY projects (not 🙂) offered here will likely cost just as much as that complete device. WiiM seems to have a quite competent team that designed an impressive newcomer hitting competition on the face. It will be hard to come even close as an individual DAC Meister. I know it, you know it, we know it. If products can be made so well performing with recent chips internally the 2 box model is over & out as it serves no purpose anymore.
If these guys bring out an Ultra 2 with the suggested improvements DIY external stereo DAC projects for normal home audio probably will be history. Maybe they already are.
You guys simply had the luck that you bought a cheapo that performs. In the past 20 or more years I tried out various and some were pretty unimpressive. They all were more expensive I think. WiiM Ultra is the best proof that pretty good/excellent inexpensive 1 box Chinese audio exists! Any of endeavors of external DAC DIY projects (not 🙂) offered here will likely cost just as much as that complete device. WiiM seems to have a quite competent team that designed an impressive newcomer hitting competition on the face. It will be hard to come even close as an individual DAC Meister. I know it, you know it, we know it. If products can be made so well performing with recent chips internally the 2 box model is over & out as it serves no purpose anymore.
If these guys bring out an Ultra 2 with the suggested improvements DIY external stereo DAC projects for normal home audio probably will be history. Maybe they already are.
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It won't as clock jitter manifest itself as distortion on the converted side / analog domain. This we already have measurements for.
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It is hard to record by line in (at least my try with WM8782 ADC, it ruins that I hear in realtime), but I've tried to do it with one cheap DAC. I replaced 24MHz XMOS oscillator and made two recordings of the same material. Then I adjusted both waves to the beginning perfectly in the sound editor, inverted one channel and the sound did not disappear completely, some spatial component of the sound remained.
I have already significantly improved sound stage in four different devices by replacing the crystal that clocks the USB controller (of course other audio clocks matters too). It worked for both XMOS (different generations) and Savitech Bravo. Especially this hearable where were used passive crystals (look carefully, they often come in a case like regular 4pin oscillators). You don't need to buy expensive clocks there, just a normal quality active oscillator is enough, of course powered from ultra low noise reg. I suspect that in devices on CM6631 such a solution will also improve the sound stage. BTW In a month I will be able to remake this clock in Schiit Modi Multibit and tell you. Also suspect that the same trick will greatly improve SPDIF transcievers and receivers.
So there are many chineese inexpencive DACs which could sound excellent not only at paper, but after some DIY.
Good to hear. I suggested my old partner in audio crime to cooperate and invest time in Subbu V4 with ES9039Q2M but obligations make it impossible. Personally the thought of again bringing hundreds of packets to shipping companies gives me shivers 🙂
Just changed the fake looking 5532 on the CheapESS DAC for an LM6172 and now it is OK sounding.
I have already told that there is not test that can reveal "cues". It would be logically the same as a measurement that could spit out the distance between two cellists in an orchestra. There are simply no references in a stereo recording to perform such thing.
"Cues" are forwarded as part of the electrical signal - I hope at least we agree om that. Last I checked there wasn't a third channel on CD record that carries a "cue-channel" so it must be in the 2 channels that make up stereo. And as we know, the digital information maps out a 2 dimensional chart with pairs of time (on the x-axis) and level (on the y-axis). If you can hear "cues" it will have to have been carried by these x/y pairs. Its unquestionable.
The TNT-T test above (yes, you heard it here first!) is devised to identify any channel "imbalance" wrt laying out trails of x/y pairs - by inverting one channel in the digital input stimuli, the residual from summation represent the error.
So if; distortion is low, FR is linear, converter is monotonic and linear with changing level AND, noting comes out of a TNT-T test - the DUT will have no problem recreating "cues" or whatever was coded in the recorded signal (that satisfies the sampling theorem).
Clock jitter makes for an x-axis component error and in combination with a correct y-axis value. The crime is committed just before the process of converting a digital level value to the corresponding analog voltage value and makes the value pair to be incorrectly placed on the "map" - the error will create a signal level on the analog, converted side, that is a little to high or little to low for the tentatively correct point in time - this makes the analog curve being incorrectly recreated. For a sinus (or any signal of course) this means distortion i.e. creation of some spectral energy other than the stimuli i.e. not a part of the input data. Thats what jitter does. It doesn't move items in the soundscape - how could it - its about much less than a ns error. But a true timing error between channels could potentially do that actually - but as of yet - there have been no tests for this. But now one has been invented.
Congrats! ( 😉 )
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