Yes, I would like to see that CLS mylar jig.
On both of my CLS sets (CLS original and CLS II panels), the copper bias ribbon was just wound twice around the bare bias wire - no solder or clamp - and was an initial source of intermittent bias failure on one of my panels...a real bad idea on an otherwise great design.
My can of Licron ($41 shipped from MCM) came out splotchy and dried somewhat opaque, not clear...while on another panel, I "polished rubbed" the handsoap onto the mylar, and it was clear. Being able to completely see through the panel gives it another cool effect that I kinda like. Making the panels open-able using velcro makes it even better just sticking with the handsoap or Turtle Wax with the original panels.
On both of my CLS sets (CLS original and CLS II panels), the copper bias ribbon was just wound twice around the bare bias wire - no solder or clamp - and was an initial source of intermittent bias failure on one of my panels...a real bad idea on an otherwise great design.
My can of Licron ($41 shipped from MCM) came out splotchy and dried somewhat opaque, not clear...while on another panel, I "polished rubbed" the handsoap onto the mylar, and it was clear. Being able to completely see through the panel gives it another cool effect that I kinda like. Making the panels open-able using velcro makes it even better just sticking with the handsoap or Turtle Wax with the original panels.
I'd agree, if a person makes it easy to take them apart, the longevity of the coating is of much less importance.
Mine were the same, the bias wire was just wrapped around the charge ring, and the ring was an aluminum strip, not copper so I can see why they did that.
I tried MCM and they said they couldn't export the stuff to Canada.
Mine were the same, the bias wire was just wrapped around the charge ring, and the ring was an aluminum strip, not copper so I can see why they did that.
I tried MCM and they said they couldn't export the stuff to Canada.
I have been re-worink ML panels for a long time, an if you cant open your panels you well lose in 6 mon,10% of the output! one year,good luck
But if you can pop them back open an clean them not re-coat, this is the key if you could see the dust after 3-5k bias V, just 2 days you would freak.
I would not use a panel for long that i have opened,if i could not re-open it.
Funny know one put a panel togather Like old Acoustats,with 1/16-8th or more mylar movement,eachway i gess that, an what ever black ink an other goodys Jim put in his coating Makes the panels work so well for the longest time,we should Today Beabel to make a better,Got be flat! panel.
Than the ACOUSTAT..............Anyone??
As for the coating,some here say the Licron work great for them,this is good for all to know BUt........
If i were going to put a panel to gather forever?
ER Audio sale coating, it clear.
Russ over at JustrealMusic also sale coating.for less than,Licron or the same.
Thay have an others been useing there coating for years, an it works great.
But thats ME!
Thanks for any an all info on ESLs
Long live Acoustats An Apogee.....
But if you can pop them back open an clean them not re-coat, this is the key if you could see the dust after 3-5k bias V, just 2 days you would freak.
I would not use a panel for long that i have opened,if i could not re-open it.
Funny know one put a panel togather Like old Acoustats,with 1/16-8th or more mylar movement,eachway i gess that, an what ever black ink an other goodys Jim put in his coating Makes the panels work so well for the longest time,we should Today Beabel to make a better,Got be flat! panel.
Than the ACOUSTAT..............Anyone??
As for the coating,some here say the Licron work great for them,this is good for all to know BUt........
If i were going to put a panel to gather forever?
ER Audio sale coating, it clear.
Russ over at JustrealMusic also sale coating.for less than,Licron or the same.
Thay have an others been useing there coating for years, an it works great.
But thats ME!
Thanks for any an all info on ESLs
Long live Acoustats An Apogee.....
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I think part of the Acoustat secret is the panel is protected from the UV because of the grill cloth. Acoustat coating goes bad too, if you ever take an old one apart you will see the black coating cracked and shrunken.
I own a pair of ML Monolith II's that work perfectly and have lots of output. They were kept away from the light and in a non-smoking home. If you look at the Mylar, it's perfectly clean with no dust on it at all. The secret is to turn them off and let them sit over night and vacuum them periodically and keep them away from kitchen cooking where there is oil in the air. I think the newer Logans only energize the panel when there is a source playing so they don't attract dust all the time.
The Sound Labs I had said that they charge the panel differently so it repels dust rather than attract.
This is the site of Patrick Wagner in Germany, he makes Apogee ribbons.
ESL,Elektrostaten,electrostatis,Lautsprecher, Loudspeaker, Designers and Manufacturers of Electrostatic Loudspeakers and Fine Audiophile Equipment, Electrostatic Loudspeakers, Electrostatic Loudspeaker kits,DIY Electrostatic Loudspeakers, Electrostat
the site is in German. Al
ESL,Elektrostaten,electrostatis,Lautsprecher, Loudspeaker, Designers and Manufacturers of Electrostatic Loudspeakers and Fine Audiophile Equipment, Electrostatic Loudspeakers, Electrostatic Loudspeaker kits,DIY Electrostatic Loudspeakers, Electrostat
the site is in German. Al
I think you don't need the corrugations for the sound but only to make it possible to install the bass panel.
Because it doesn't bent and you can stretch it one way.
I made a wooden frame stretch the Kapton on a flat table glue the frame onto the Kapton.
Later when I cut the aluminum I glue the frame and kapton over the aluminum.
This way its alway wrinkle free.
Rob
Because it doesn't bent and you can stretch it one way.
I made a wooden frame stretch the Kapton on a flat table glue the frame onto the Kapton.
Later when I cut the aluminum I glue the frame and kapton over the aluminum.
This way its alway wrinkle free.
Rob
Apogee Ribbons by Patrick Wagner
Hello Artm, I just read your post in the diyAudio- thread about repairing Apogee speakers from July 2013. You said, you aren't confident in Patrick Wagners Apogee ribbons, especially the way of corrugating them. Do you have some experience with his MTW-Ribbons? I'm considering to replace the tweeters of my Centaurs with his ribbons, because Graz' offers are too expensive (Customs etc.) for me. Appreciate your answer. Thanks a lot.
Hello Artm, I just read your post in the diyAudio- thread about repairing Apogee speakers from July 2013. You said, you aren't confident in Patrick Wagners Apogee ribbons, especially the way of corrugating them. Do you have some experience with his MTW-Ribbons? I'm considering to replace the tweeters of my Centaurs with his ribbons, because Graz' offers are too expensive (Customs etc.) for me. Appreciate your answer. Thanks a lot.
I was referring to the bass panels, I think. His corrugations with the panel at rest were mild (not enough) compared to real Apogee panels.
As you are In Germany, and so is Patrick, I would take a chance and try him. Buy two, install only one. If you like it do the other, if not just return it.
I have always thought Graz's prices were high, so I never bought them. I'm still using my Cal Sigs but I also use other speakers. My Apogees are replaceable, with other manufacturer's models, when the time comes. There are many great speakers that don't require maintenance at high cost like these do.
As you are In Germany, and so is Patrick, I would take a chance and try him. Buy two, install only one. If you like it do the other, if not just return it.
I have always thought Graz's prices were high, so I never bought them. I'm still using my Cal Sigs but I also use other speakers. My Apogees are replaceable, with other manufacturer's models, when the time comes. There are many great speakers that don't require maintenance at high cost like these do.
Old school template for hand cutting the traces.
This gives you accurate edge cuts and more appropriately allows you to keep the foil from moving around as you press down on it followed closely with your xacto knife.
Now a CNC XY plotter/printer and some sputtered aluminum on Kapton where you print and acid etch away the lines would be the ultimate way, the issue is finding a small quantity
of this premade combination for the diyer
At least Graz offers this etched solution and good for him in keeping the
Apogee name going strong
The kapton/foil combination is available and pricy , but this is out of
The question for now and separate foil and kapton can be found more reasonably priced and thus the hand cutting comes into play.
This is DIY after all and we want a cheaper alternate solution
This template is laying on top of an old Diva foil BTW
I did add up and check the magnet spacing dimensions along with the corrugating jig and its reduction dim. To make sure when its laid out, that each division is squarely over each row of magnets.
Regards
David
The foils I used were soft temper 1100 pure aluminum in 18” width -.001”
I believe the soft temper might work better on midrange and tweeter foils with better internal damping but after experimenting with 1 foot wide pieces, I found for the bass panels the hard temper 1100 aluminum works and handles better overall IMO
You can tell the difference in grain. It looks like it has been work hardened thru rollers possibly before being rolled onto the tube. It is the same 1100 material in either version
A stock Diva panel is 19 3/4” wide so 18” width requires some manipulation to connect
The “voice coil” circuit . You have to get creative here and think it thru
Grainger sells the stuff and its not to expensive at 18” widths both .001” thickness
Regards
David
I believe the soft temper might work better on midrange and tweeter foils with better internal damping but after experimenting with 1 foot wide pieces, I found for the bass panels the hard temper 1100 aluminum works and handles better overall IMO
You can tell the difference in grain. It looks like it has been work hardened thru rollers possibly before being rolled onto the tube. It is the same 1100 material in either version
A stock Diva panel is 19 3/4” wide so 18” width requires some manipulation to connect
The “voice coil” circuit . You have to get creative here and think it thru
Grainger sells the stuff and its not to expensive at 18” widths both .001” thickness
Regards
David
Holding the foil down on glass so it doesn’t move around is another issue.
I tried 9 different combinations of distilled water with soap,and yellow glue.
Ivory soap and water corroded the foil if left too long.
Water with drops of various soaps or glue or just water/soap all corroded the look or discolored the face surface.
If you act fast enough you can probably get away with water/soap combo
You would need to acid etch this surface to clean it up unless you found a coated foil of some kind
The best most workable hold down liquid that did not affect the hydraulic action necessary
Or corrode the pristine surface was WD-40.
Spray on glass and squeeze the contents out with a rounded corner window squeegee
The rounding of the squeegee edges is important as the sharp rubber corners can streak or bend the foil as the Wd-40 exits to the edges. It doesn’t take much force to bend .001” foil
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