That's correct, using it with a separate PSU means that you need to disconnect the 5v supply from the computer and re-route it to the new PSU.
I'm not qualified to say exactly what is happening but I think that we have long gone past the point where we said "ones are ones, and zeros are zeros". Even how you connect these USB DACs/converters up makes a difference. Then we have the computer, the operating system, the playback software etc. IMHO we are back to the days of the turntable where there was so much to tweak to change the sound.
Can a 'dirty' supply from the computer get through to the rest of the hi-fi? I think that we do have to accept that virtually any electronic equipment performs better if it has a cleaner/better power supply to run off (and that is no matter what type of signal it is processing).
I've recently reviewed two USB converters, both using LiFeP04 batteries, and one sounds better than the other. Again, I can't say why. Different brands of batteries perhaps? I don't know as in both cases I was asked not to open the cases.
Yes, batteries have their cons too. I've always said there isn't an aspect of hi-fi that doesn't have its pros and cons. But I reckon mains quality is getting worse each year. Soon we will find all our street lights with LED units installed. We can't complain given the environmental, and economic advantages, but what's that going to do to the quality of the mains supply? Audiophiles may one day be forced into looking at some sort of off-grid power supply.
Galvonic isolation, is a known used engineering technique, to avoid the transfer of noise from one system to another, and having a power supply that is up to the job is as critical to a design as anyother part of the design,as to the rest...
We cant go past the point of ones and zeros because that is what digital is, you can study signal inetgrity (Howar Johnson, Eric Bogatin) but digital is 1 & 0 nothing else, as long as the 1's and 0's get from the transmitter to the reciever and can still be read, job done.
How good is digital signal transmission, very, thats why we use it so much these days, it is pretty immune from a high levels of noise, its reliable, and it works on 1s and 0's, if the signal is above a certain voltage its a 1 if its below a certain voltage its a zero. Now you cannot designdigital circuitry by ears you need at least a scope to examine the waveform and look for signal mintegrity issues, if there are any.
We cant go past the point of ones and zeros because that is what digital is, you can study signal inetgrity (Howar Johnson, Eric Bogatin) but digital is 1 & 0 nothing else, as long as the 1's and 0's get from the transmitter to the reciever and can still be read, job done.
How good is digital signal transmission, very, thats why we use it so much these days, it is pretty immune from a high levels of noise, its reliable, and it works on 1s and 0's, if the signal is above a certain voltage its a 1 if its below a certain voltage its a zero. Now you cannot designdigital circuitry by ears you need at least a scope to examine the waveform and look for signal mintegrity issues, if there are any.
Like I said, I am not qualified to dispute the theory. I can only report what my ears tell me. I am far from being alone in hearing the differences that the different power supplies make to USB converters.
I am curious as to what is causing the change, one of my interests (and a part of my job) is signal integrity, and power supplies and there effects on systems.
The problem is having access and time to measure the signals, not just scope shots but eye diagrams and long term monitering of both the signals and the supplies.
Just curious and it would be nice to equate the changes in supplies to some sort of empiral data as well as listening.
The problem is having access and time to measure the signals, not just scope shots but eye diagrams and long term monitering of both the signals and the supplies.
Just curious and it would be nice to equate the changes in supplies to some sort of empiral data as well as listening.
See the current issue of "Linear Audio" where 13 common and high performance regs were compared. A regulator can test quite well for PSRR, noise and Zout yet make a mess of the sound. I've kept the test setup intact to perform another set of measurements, but it's a very laborious process and you need a lot of volunteers!
Funny out of all the companies and design teams I work with, there is only audio DIY that gets so hung up over digital, digital is 1 and 0s, and timing. Even if you use a PLL to extract your clock the end result is digital.
Only if your design is bad, and then it shouldn't have been designed.
I work with digital every day, and dont see the hang ups you lot get over digital, a lot of it communication based recently.
At the end of the day show some empirical data so we can collate, as you cant design digital systems by ears alone (or any other system)
Only if your design is bad, and then it shouldn't have been designed.
I work with digital every day, and dont see the hang ups you lot get over digital, a lot of it communication based recently.
At the end of the day show some empirical data so we can collate, as you cant design digital systems by ears alone (or any other system)
No,
what difference does that make, if I am working on some sensitive medical equipement do the laws of physics and electronic design change. Analogue and digital design does not change the rules if tyou are doing hi-fi, or mil, areospace, medical, mobile devices, high speed communication interfaces, Internet repeaters.
I have worked very closely with some high end communications systems over the last 5 years, amongst many other interesting projects, including proffesional audio...
So what is the difference with hi-fi design, to any other, qhuite often more ardous or sensitive designs?
what difference does that make, if I am working on some sensitive medical equipement do the laws of physics and electronic design change. Analogue and digital design does not change the rules if tyou are doing hi-fi, or mil, areospace, medical, mobile devices, high speed communication interfaces, Internet repeaters.
I have worked very closely with some high end communications systems over the last 5 years, amongst many other interesting projects, including proffesional audio...
So what is the difference with hi-fi design, to any other, qhuite often more ardous or sensitive designs?
Well that's the $64,000 question. It's not an exact analogy but somebody constructing pallets may say that the type of timber doesn't make any difference, while somebody building violins would argue that it does.
The bottom line is that not all USB converters sound the same so there must be some reason that the world of electronics has yet to discover, even if that factor doesn't affect non-audio circuits.
There isn't any reason the world of electronics has yet to discover. I see this type of thing proposed all the time on audio forums and it is preposterous.
Yeah, we can build giant particle accelerators and super-sensitive detectors to confirm the existence of sub-atomic particles, but we can't explain the mysteries of USB audio, sure.
Unfortunately, some of these devices are so poorly designed one could not rule out audible issues. Since the high-end audio community seems to ignore science, a lot of hacks that would have been laughed out of other industries are racking up the sales.
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Just to clarify, a well-designed USB to I2S interface would be galvanically isolated from the USB host and operate asynchronously with respect to the host (i.e. operate in I2S slave mode clocked by local oscillator at the DAC).
If all these steps are taken, there will be no audible difference unless something is screwed up. By deriving I2S from the DAC's local oscillator you have removed the jitter bogeyman, assuming the clock is good and the distribution isn't screwed up.
If all these steps are taken, there will be no audible difference unless something is screwed up. By deriving I2S from the DAC's local oscillator you have removed the jitter bogeyman, assuming the clock is good and the distribution isn't screwed up.
that is a real laugh, so you think hi-fi is the pinacle of electronic design, sorry to shatter your delusions but it isn't. Ah ah ah ahah ah (mad laughter). I work on numerous projects that make audio design look like a breeze, military, medical and aerospace for a start, projects where mnot only does the stuff have to work but failure of a design could cause loss of life. Niether are we designing violins, you need to get this view that audio designers are artistes (LOL) they are engineers creating an electrical system to replay some pre-recorded sounds. Thats part of the problem with DIY audio, to many people would rather follow fantasies than employ engineering and physics to solve a problem.
Well bugger me, how the heck do we manage to communicate on this forum from across the world, oh digital signal transmission, no different than sending a streem of bits from a hard drive, CD to a DAC, no different, again delusions and lack of understanding, I would suggest you do some reading up on digiatl design and signal transmission and why it is used so reliably these days.
Ah but particle accelerators are built by physists, and they dont care what wood goes into their pallets!
yeah I think thats the pertinent point here, properly designed interfaces should sound the same, the problem is many in our industry do not know what proper design is.
to suggest that audio engineering is somehow more demanding than high spec low noise and wide bandwidth scientific instrumentation is pretty funny. its maybe not as simple as many claim, there are still boxes to tick, but there is no ghost in the machine
the main source of mystery/inconsistency is the observer
to suggest that audio engineering is somehow more demanding than high spec low noise and wide bandwidth scientific instrumentation is pretty funny. its maybe not as simple as many claim, there are still boxes to tick, but there is no ghost in the machine
the main source of mystery/inconsistency is the observer
Sorry, but sometimes the view that audio electronics is a different disipline from the rest of electronics gets my back up, maybe if we did more engineering rather than chasing ghosts we could solve the percieved issues and stop perpetuating myths, cos in digital design these days as Eric Bogatin says "no myths allowed".I was also galled that audio design is superior!
I tend to agree with marce. Hifi, high end, audio or whatever you'd wish to call this hobby is surrounded by mysticysm and suggestion.
Take two identical electrolytic caps, e.g., cut the sleeve off one of them and put a nice looking sleeve on it with gold lettering and "for audio", "cerafine", "black gate" or whatever suggestive wording printed on it and perform listening tests with a panel. First blind and then knowing which cap is mounted. My guess: the latter test will point to the resleeved cap as the winner, the former won't.
Nonsense you say? Well, I know from someone who worked in the supermarket business that just putting the words "special offer" on products has a beneficial effect on the turnover despite not actually lowering the price. The suggestion alone was enough to attract more buyers.
I'm not sure we can ever solve the "perceived audio quality issue". I own and enjoy thoroughly a DAC employing the controversial non oversampling approach. I did some measurements on it and they don't look good. And yet I perceive its sound quality as the best I've ever heard from a DAC.
Take two identical electrolytic caps, e.g., cut the sleeve off one of them and put a nice looking sleeve on it with gold lettering and "for audio", "cerafine", "black gate" or whatever suggestive wording printed on it and perform listening tests with a panel. First blind and then knowing which cap is mounted. My guess: the latter test will point to the resleeved cap as the winner, the former won't.
Nonsense you say? Well, I know from someone who worked in the supermarket business that just putting the words "special offer" on products has a beneficial effect on the turnover despite not actually lowering the price. The suggestion alone was enough to attract more buyers.
I'm not sure we can ever solve the "perceived audio quality issue". I own and enjoy thoroughly a DAC employing the controversial non oversampling approach. I did some measurements on it and they don't look good. And yet I perceive its sound quality as the best I've ever heard from a DAC.
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I wasn't suggesting that hi-fi electronics is different to other types in its design. But the fact that the product of hi-fi is sound, rather than say what we are reading on our monitors, makes it different to how we perceive the results of the design.
If you guys are saying that because these USB converters sound different, they are not designed properly, then fair enough, but which ones are the 'bad designs'?
And that takes us full circle back to the original topic which is battery power supplies. Because of what some of you say, ie these USB converters are not designed properly, the power supply makes a difference, and some of us are interested in alternatives to mains supplies.
If you guys are saying that because these USB converters sound different, they are not designed properly, then fair enough, but which ones are the 'bad designs'?
And that takes us full circle back to the original topic which is battery power supplies. Because of what some of you say, ie these USB converters are not designed properly, the power supply makes a difference, and some of us are interested in alternatives to mains supplies.
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