attached you'll find a list...
of those interested and in what. Once I get the prototype and ensure the quality and sound is what I think we're after, I'll get photos and provide the "real cost" to GB members.
Wish my brothers were closer, cause I could get some of this stuff done by them or their buddies (all millwrights and machinists). The local machinist working on this is perhaps the most fusy that I have ever met, and a great guy to boot. Just didn't know he did "projects" in the evenings.
Please email me at nellsk@hotmail.com to verify that you are still interested, and that the list is accurate.
Hope to have a cost set by tomorrow, as discussing things with the supplier early tomorrow morning.
stew
just notice mike wong listed twice.. .sorry.
of those interested and in what. Once I get the prototype and ensure the quality and sound is what I think we're after, I'll get photos and provide the "real cost" to GB members.
Wish my brothers were closer, cause I could get some of this stuff done by them or their buddies (all millwrights and machinists). The local machinist working on this is perhaps the most fusy that I have ever met, and a great guy to boot. Just didn't know he did "projects" in the evenings.
Please email me at nellsk@hotmail.com to verify that you are still interested, and that the list is accurate.
Hope to have a cost set by tomorrow, as discussing things with the supplier early tomorrow morning.
stew
just notice mike wong listed twice.. .sorry.
to all: waiting for response
from the machinist and the maker. I've found another turntable that is essentially the same, but priced at 1800 less tonearm... (I can even RETAIL this table at a lower price complete with an arm) for a lower price and make enough money to live ... who'd a thunk it?
Our table (both the GB and commercial design) will have essentially the same platter , but a custom inverted bearing (similar to the Opera Audio bearing---but not theirs.). Also the motor height has been changed to allow for the CoG of the platter/bearing to be inline with the belt drive.
I know : lots of promises thus far, but the stock tables we have tried actually suck (a little), and the changes and improvements are (at least theoretically) worthy of doing. The proof will be in the comparisons.
It does appear that I may be able to get my hands on some modified Rega tonearms, with new counter weight, VTA base, and VTA nut. Internal wiring is as stock, but easy to improve (a great DIY project). Once the bearing/platter issues and delivery can be arranged, then I "ll get more serious about the tonearm. I have to buy 10 at a time to allow me to purchase, so unless I get that much interest, then none can be had, I leave that to the rest of you.
stew
from the machinist and the maker. I've found another turntable that is essentially the same, but priced at 1800 less tonearm... (I can even RETAIL this table at a lower price complete with an arm) for a lower price and make enough money to live ... who'd a thunk it?
Our table (both the GB and commercial design) will have essentially the same platter , but a custom inverted bearing (similar to the Opera Audio bearing---but not theirs.). Also the motor height has been changed to allow for the CoG of the platter/bearing to be inline with the belt drive.
I know : lots of promises thus far, but the stock tables we have tried actually suck (a little), and the changes and improvements are (at least theoretically) worthy of doing. The proof will be in the comparisons.
It does appear that I may be able to get my hands on some modified Rega tonearms, with new counter weight, VTA base, and VTA nut. Internal wiring is as stock, but easy to improve (a great DIY project). Once the bearing/platter issues and delivery can be arranged, then I "ll get more serious about the tonearm. I have to buy 10 at a time to allow me to purchase, so unless I get that much interest, then none can be had, I leave that to the rest of you.
stew
update: status of platter /bearing
for all that have shown interest,:
A new supplier for the platter has been found that can provide turn-around time of 14 days o. allow a week for me to get the stuff, repack it and send it out. Price needs to be established, as a formal quote has not been provided. But based on the 1 email exchange it seems like a real possibility.
The option to have platter "blanks" may also exist, to be provided for you to finish dimensionally to your needs. Basically the platter with a 1/4" pilot hole (and these may exceed the cost of the completed platters based on quantity).
Expecting the locally made prototype bearing within the next week, and a cost estimate, based on 18 bearings.
The original supplier hasn't shown much interest as to last contact. They may come through yet.
As soon as I have more information, I will post an UPDATE: GB platter /bearing or open a new thread..
Thanks to all that have continued to have interest in this,: it re-energizes me every email or response I get. Prior to anything formal occurring I will email all and ask for a commitment indicator and payment prior to ordering. I simply do not have the funds to cover the costs. PayPal would probably be the best way to proceed. If any are concerned, an escrow feature can be used. Once all interested have committed, I will go ahead and order the pieces.
stew
for all that have shown interest,:
A new supplier for the platter has been found that can provide turn-around time of 14 days o. allow a week for me to get the stuff, repack it and send it out. Price needs to be established, as a formal quote has not been provided. But based on the 1 email exchange it seems like a real possibility.
The option to have platter "blanks" may also exist, to be provided for you to finish dimensionally to your needs. Basically the platter with a 1/4" pilot hole (and these may exceed the cost of the completed platters based on quantity).
Expecting the locally made prototype bearing within the next week, and a cost estimate, based on 18 bearings.
The original supplier hasn't shown much interest as to last contact. They may come through yet.
As soon as I have more information, I will post an UPDATE: GB platter /bearing or open a new thread..
Thanks to all that have continued to have interest in this,: it re-energizes me every email or response I get. Prior to anything formal occurring I will email all and ask for a commitment indicator and payment prior to ordering. I simply do not have the funds to cover the costs. PayPal would probably be the best way to proceed. If any are concerned, an escrow feature can be used. Once all interested have committed, I will go ahead and order the pieces.
stew
Re: update: status of platter /bearing
Stew, I would be cautious about getting a pilot hole drilled. If you don't have the right equipment to finish the holesize, you may completely ruin the platter. If you are experienced with machining acrylic, you know what I mean. Acrylic needs to be machined all over, otherwise it will wobble/runout very badly. Measure (with a micrometer) an acrylic blank of any size and you will see that the thickness will vary by a large amount from end to end.
I wouldn't recommend cutting acrylic without the right machinery/equipment or knowledge.
Nanook said:
Stew, I would be cautious about getting a pilot hole drilled. If you don't have the right equipment to finish the holesize, you may completely ruin the platter. If you are experienced with machining acrylic, you know what I mean. Acrylic needs to be machined all over, otherwise it will wobble/runout very badly. Measure (with a micrometer) an acrylic blank of any size and you will see that the thickness will vary by a large amount from end to end.
I wouldn't recommend cutting acrylic without the right machinery/equipment or knowledge.
Vinyl-Addict, about a pilot hole.
The idea was for those that do not want the proposed bearing, just a platter (as they may already have a bearing). It would be upto them to get it finish machined. I am not a machinist, nor pretend to be. This second supplier is an acrylic specialist, pretty much all they do is acrylic, polycarbonate, Lexan, etc.
I am not sure they will break the order up into individual specifications. I can check with them if that is possible without affecting the majority who have shown interest (by having the overall amount go up even those who want the bearing AND the platter), because the total number of one specification may go down. The material is quite expensive though, so maybe it is a possibility. And the platter thickness would either decrease to 38.1mm or increase to 44.45mm. The difference in cost will be provided, but I would think it better to retain the original 43mm thickness and allow both sides of the platter to be milled flat.
Based on your experience, would you suggest no holes be put into the platters to be sold to those who already have their bearing from elsewhere?
Originally the idea was to have an off-shore supplier provide the bearing and the platter, but they have essentially zero enthusiasm regarding some measly little sales to North America. The freight was the killer in this scenario. They may still respond, and if so I will entertain their quote, but I am very encouraged by the second supplier. They seem serious, even though they know there will not be alot of money in it for them compared to their usual volume. I think I may have piqued their curiosity. Unfortunately the cost per item will increase, but the freight will decrease by (hopefully) a similar amount. A typical 14 day turn-around has been quoted.
Thanks Vinyl-Addict for both your comments here and your personal email in response to my private inquiry to you. I wish there was the opportunity to have you consider this work, but alas, you're very busy (which is great for you, but sux for me
)
For many that may not know, Vinyl-Addict makes some very well reviewed analog modifications for a well known turntable. I might openly promote him and his site, but as I hadn't asked him if he would feel comfortable with that, I won't. If he responds to me thinking it OK, I would gladly privately email any who might want the web page location.
Good night all... things are actually starting to move !
stew
The idea was for those that do not want the proposed bearing, just a platter (as they may already have a bearing). It would be upto them to get it finish machined. I am not a machinist, nor pretend to be. This second supplier is an acrylic specialist, pretty much all they do is acrylic, polycarbonate, Lexan, etc.
I am not sure they will break the order up into individual specifications. I can check with them if that is possible without affecting the majority who have shown interest (by having the overall amount go up even those who want the bearing AND the platter), because the total number of one specification may go down. The material is quite expensive though, so maybe it is a possibility. And the platter thickness would either decrease to 38.1mm or increase to 44.45mm. The difference in cost will be provided, but I would think it better to retain the original 43mm thickness and allow both sides of the platter to be milled flat.
Based on your experience, would you suggest no holes be put into the platters to be sold to those who already have their bearing from elsewhere?
Originally the idea was to have an off-shore supplier provide the bearing and the platter, but they have essentially zero enthusiasm regarding some measly little sales to North America. The freight was the killer in this scenario. They may still respond, and if so I will entertain their quote, but I am very encouraged by the second supplier. They seem serious, even though they know there will not be alot of money in it for them compared to their usual volume. I think I may have piqued their curiosity. Unfortunately the cost per item will increase, but the freight will decrease by (hopefully) a similar amount. A typical 14 day turn-around has been quoted.
Thanks Vinyl-Addict for both your comments here and your personal email in response to my private inquiry to you. I wish there was the opportunity to have you consider this work, but alas, you're very busy (which is great for you, but sux for me
)For many that may not know, Vinyl-Addict makes some very well reviewed analog modifications for a well known turntable. I might openly promote him and his site, but as I hadn't asked him if he would feel comfortable with that, I won't. If he responds to me thinking it OK, I would gladly privately email any who might want the web page location.
Good night all... things are actually starting to move !
stew
If people wanted just discs of plastics we could arrange to have a sheet cut on our waterjet into discs. It would be up to individuals to machine them to their own specifications. I could run the nesting program and see how many 12 1/4" discs could come out of a 4'x 8' sheet. The machine uses rather expensive abrasive but it is very fast at cutting plastics so the price shouldn't be too bad per disc. At least you would have a rough disc to start with. If people wanted special sizes the price would be very expensive unless a full sheet is cut then per disc the price would be reasonable. We use a Flow with a dynamic cutting head so there is very little taper compared to most waterjets.
cutting discs (or disks?)...Greg, u have mail
I will wait to see if a per piece accommodation can be made for various bearings (but I won't be recalculating everything for everyone... kinda like design by "camel" earlier in this thread)
Material will be 1-1/2'"(38.1 mm) or 1-3/4"(44.45 mm) depending on the quoted price of materials. If not more than 10% difference, I think the thicker is the choice, as it allows the platters to be milled on both sides. I guess it really depends on what the acoustical properties of the various thicknesses are.
I know I can get upto 3" slabs of the stuff, but I can also get 3" granite too! (sorry if that seems a little facetious). Speaking of Granite, Granite plinths may be available in convenient sizes....oops starting to sound like an audio pimp
I will wait to see if a per piece accommodation can be made for various bearings (but I won't be recalculating everything for everyone... kinda like design by "camel" earlier in this thread)
Material will be 1-1/2'"(38.1 mm) or 1-3/4"(44.45 mm) depending on the quoted price of materials. If not more than 10% difference, I think the thicker is the choice, as it allows the platters to be milled on both sides. I guess it really depends on what the acoustical properties of the various thicknesses are.
I know I can get upto 3" slabs of the stuff, but I can also get 3" granite too! (sorry if that seems a little facetious). Speaking of Granite, Granite plinths may be available in convenient sizes....oops starting to sound like an audio pimp
Update: March 26..to all and nanfanja
first the easy answer to the easy question. : nanfanja, that depends on the tonearm you intend on using. Different arms require different mounting locations. The "standard" arms for 9" long ones are typically the Rega, the Linn, and the SME.
check out the vinyl engine for further details, it's a wonderful source of information and has many manuals and other reference materials.
and now the rest of the story...(for everyone interested in the group buy):
well it seems the original manufacturer has at least provided a quote. Thus far, everything is on target for the $400-$450 range. The only variable now is freight costs (which can be significant, especially if air freight), and a couple of questions to all you folks that have shown patience.
The manufacturer has suggested a 2 week turnaround time from time of order until time of shipping. How would you like to proceed? Should we wait until we get a prototype to me and then go from there, or do we just order and whatever I end up with, I make work, regardless of what comes to me?
The difference is at least 3 weeks. (say 2 weeks turnaround, 3 days for shipment, at least a day for implementation, and listening/quality control, report back to you, and then if all ordered within say a few days, 2 weeks for the product to get made, another 3 days for shipment). And then shipment to you.
(22 day difference)-that would put the cautious route 5 weeks out at least for delivery to you (except those in Europe, where the time difference may be greater). Also note that the freight charges are the responsibility of the end user for payment (from me to you). Does this seem OK?
Please provide all the feedback via the forum, and indications of purchase should be sent to: nellsk@hotmail.com .
For those thinking about estimating freight, US folks: estimate about 1/2 ft^3 and about 10 lbs. from Canadian Postal Code T1H 4V7, via the carrier of your choice.
All others: 12 litres volume, 4.4 kg mass, from same Canadian Postal Code T1H 4V7---sorry Europe, this may hurt a little
Hope to have the final details completed in a day or two, then open up for Paypal payments, and leave the GB purchase option open for 1 week. Freight will not be charged via PayPal until the actual products are ready for shipping to the individual end users. Paypal account details will be emailed to each individually.
Thanks again for the patience, and the faith in me that many have given. It looks like it's all over but the crying now...
Oh, the NA sourced polished platters will no longer be an option (sorry).
stew
first the easy answer to the easy question. : nanfanja, that depends on the tonearm you intend on using. Different arms require different mounting locations. The "standard" arms for 9" long ones are typically the Rega, the Linn, and the SME.
check out the vinyl engine for further details, it's a wonderful source of information and has many manuals and other reference materials.
and now the rest of the story...(for everyone interested in the group buy):
well it seems the original manufacturer has at least provided a quote. Thus far, everything is on target for the $400-$450 range. The only variable now is freight costs (which can be significant, especially if air freight), and a couple of questions to all you folks that have shown patience.
The manufacturer has suggested a 2 week turnaround time from time of order until time of shipping. How would you like to proceed? Should we wait until we get a prototype to me and then go from there, or do we just order and whatever I end up with, I make work, regardless of what comes to me?
The difference is at least 3 weeks. (say 2 weeks turnaround, 3 days for shipment, at least a day for implementation, and listening/quality control, report back to you, and then if all ordered within say a few days, 2 weeks for the product to get made, another 3 days for shipment). And then shipment to you.
(22 day difference)-that would put the cautious route 5 weeks out at least for delivery to you (except those in Europe, where the time difference may be greater). Also note that the freight charges are the responsibility of the end user for payment (from me to you). Does this seem OK?
Please provide all the feedback via the forum, and indications of purchase should be sent to: nellsk@hotmail.com .
For those thinking about estimating freight, US folks: estimate about 1/2 ft^3 and about 10 lbs. from Canadian Postal Code T1H 4V7, via the carrier of your choice.
All others: 12 litres volume, 4.4 kg mass, from same Canadian Postal Code T1H 4V7---sorry Europe, this may hurt a little
Hope to have the final details completed in a day or two, then open up for Paypal payments, and leave the GB purchase option open for 1 week. Freight will not be charged via PayPal until the actual products are ready for shipping to the individual end users. Paypal account details will be emailed to each individually.
Thanks again for the patience, and the faith in me that many have given. It looks like it's all over but the crying now...
Oh, the NA sourced polished platters will no longer be an option (sorry).
stew
Re: Update: March 26..to all and nanfanja
Hi Stew, Good to hear the latest news. Speaking for myself I am not really in a hurry here. I would vote for the prototype just to make sure bearing and platter etc is functioning correctly. Also, would there be a problem if we waited to send payment until after the prototype checks out?
Thank you for your hard work and sharing on this GB.
Stan
Nanook said:
Hi Stew, Good to hear the latest news. Speaking for myself I am not really in a hurry here. I would vote for the prototype just to make sure bearing and platter etc is functioning correctly. Also, would there be a problem if we waited to send payment until after the prototype checks out?
Thank you for your hard work and sharing on this GB.
Stan
Re: Re: update: status of platter /bearing
I have a qestion for anyone who is fimular with machining. Lats just say for instance i just bought a 13 inch by 6 foot lathe. What would be the proper machineing procedure to make a good straight platter? Right now the lathe is not delivered yet and i have no tooling.
thanks
Ed
Vinyl-Addict said:
I have a qestion for anyone who is fimular with machining. Lats just say for instance i just bought a 13 inch by 6 foot lathe. What would be the proper machineing procedure to make a good straight platter? Right now the lathe is not delivered yet and i have no tooling.
thanks
Ed
Yes in theory that lathe will do what you need. The tooling is equally important. The right chuck and tool holder as well as sharp tools are required. What kind of lathe are you looking at?
A more important thought... The tools are one thing, but the technique is more important than the tools being used. I have used substandard tools at home for years and can achieve good results with patience and good machining practice. Also there is also the fact that a 12" piece of material spinning at speed with a tool cutting it can easily be turned into a projectile without the proper technique.
Safety first. Have fun. Relax this is supposed to be fun
A more important thought... The tools are one thing, but the technique is more important than the tools being used. I have used substandard tools at home for years and can achieve good results with patience and good machining practice. Also there is also the fact that a 12" piece of material spinning at speed with a tool cutting it can easily be turned into a projectile without the proper technique.
Safety first. Have fun. Relax this is supposed to be fun
Re: Re: Re: update: status of platter /bearing
What is you machining experience? It takes a lot of time to learn how to machine anything correctly (correctly is the keyword here). There are many people who are "machinist-hobbyists" and have no training or expertise at all and learn on the fly.
You need to know:
1) Proper speeds and feeds for the material being machined.
2) Methods of fixturing. (to hold the workpiece) Do you know how to cut softjaws? Do you know what a faceplate is?
3) Proper cutting tool geometry.
4) Setup of workpiece to complete the job effectively.
These are minimum requirements. You also must have a "feel for the material" you are cutting. This is something you learn only by cutting it. Acrylic will chip if you're not careful.
You must also be able to design and machine the proper tooling to hold the acrylic. It must be finished correctly or you'll end up with a wobbly mess.
You'll have to buy a lot of single point cutting tools, measuring equipment, and also know how to use them.
Is this lathe big enough to turn a 12" platter? Does it have a 13" swing or is that the distance between the gap? You may have to use a faceplate to make a platter, or it will have to be able to hold a massive chuck. I use a 20" four jaw chuck on my lathe which is too big for your machine. Sorry about the rant but I've been a machinist for over 30 years and I learn things almost on a daily basis.
fortytwo said:
What is you machining experience? It takes a lot of time to learn how to machine anything correctly (correctly is the keyword here). There are many people who are "machinist-hobbyists" and have no training or expertise at all and learn on the fly.
You need to know:
1) Proper speeds and feeds for the material being machined.
2) Methods of fixturing. (to hold the workpiece) Do you know how to cut softjaws? Do you know what a faceplate is?
3) Proper cutting tool geometry.
4) Setup of workpiece to complete the job effectively.
These are minimum requirements. You also must have a "feel for the material" you are cutting. This is something you learn only by cutting it. Acrylic will chip if you're not careful.
You must also be able to design and machine the proper tooling to hold the acrylic. It must be finished correctly or you'll end up with a wobbly mess.
You'll have to buy a lot of single point cutting tools, measuring equipment, and also know how to use them.
Is this lathe big enough to turn a 12" platter? Does it have a 13" swing or is that the distance between the gap? You may have to use a faceplate to make a platter, or it will have to be able to hold a massive chuck. I use a 20" four jaw chuck on my lathe which is too big for your machine. Sorry about the rant but I've been a machinist for over 30 years and I learn things almost on a daily basis.
Here is my situation.
I have allways like turning and took a class years ago in high school. I am currently reading south bends how to run a lathe. And i am planning on taking a "hobbyist machining class 101" at the local tech school when fall rolls around. The lathe i am buying has a 13 inch swing and 6 foot bead it is an older south bend. I figured i will have to use either a face plate and or a custom made mandral to turn on centers. I was justy wondering the best procedure to go about making a platter, i will have to get the skiils and tooling before i try.
thanks please feel free to msg me if this is getting off topic (or i can start a new thread).
thnks
Ed
I have allways like turning and took a class years ago in high school. I am currently reading south bends how to run a lathe. And i am planning on taking a "hobbyist machining class 101" at the local tech school when fall rolls around. The lathe i am buying has a 13 inch swing and 6 foot bead it is an older south bend. I figured i will have to use either a face plate and or a custom made mandral to turn on centers. I was justy wondering the best procedure to go about making a platter, i will have to get the skiils and tooling before i try.
thanks please feel free to msg me if this is getting off topic (or i can start a new thread).
thnks
Ed
another update (March 27)
here's a new wrinkle.
I may have stumbled across an existing high end turntable manufacturer that is showing some interest in providing the bearing and platter, rather than have it done by an industrial machinist's shop and put together by a less than audiophile type company that has little to no experience with high end turntables.
Everything I designed into my bearing is already part of their design, except the dimensions would be altered to fit my design. Generally I'd say, let's wait, but with this manufacturer there simply is no need.
Some have asked a few questions. So here's a summary:
I must say this is /has been a convoluted process that I have not been particularly happy with due to the suppliers contacted earlier. I do have great confidence if this last high end maker decides to take this project on. I think the results would be better than otherwise possible, so I'm crossing my fingers (and toes too!).
In the event this doesn't work out, I haven't slammed the door on the original supplier. If the original supplier ends up being the choice, then definitely there will be a wait until a prototype is delivered.
For those wanting a drawing or a picture, I'll take a couple of the original platter (modified to work with a direct drive type bearing). I will also post a picture of the bearing design.
here's a new wrinkle.
I may have stumbled across an existing high end turntable manufacturer that is showing some interest in providing the bearing and platter, rather than have it done by an industrial machinist's shop and put together by a less than audiophile type company that has little to no experience with high end turntables.
Everything I designed into my bearing is already part of their design, except the dimensions would be altered to fit my design. Generally I'd say, let's wait, but with this manufacturer there simply is no need.
Some have asked a few questions. So here's a summary:
- the bearing is an inverted type, requiring no oiling, as sintered bushings and a ceramic ball and wear plate are incorporated
- the platter is 43 mm thick, made of acrylic, clear. Unpolished unless the manufacturer will offer it for free or a very low cost. Personally I like the "frosted", unpolished look.
- the bearing/platter are designed to work together, but some may want to use a platter, or a bearing that they have already procured. This should not be a problem, but obviously the end user is responsible for altering whichever item to allow this to happen
- This is not design by committee as noted earlier. I will take a little poetic license regarding design., and finish. If no option or too expensive, then the "frosted" look will happen by default
I must say this is /has been a convoluted process that I have not been particularly happy with due to the suppliers contacted earlier. I do have great confidence if this last high end maker decides to take this project on. I think the results would be better than otherwise possible, so I'm crossing my fingers (and toes too!).
In the event this doesn't work out, I haven't slammed the door on the original supplier. If the original supplier ends up being the choice, then definitely there will be a wait until a prototype is delivered.
For those wanting a drawing or a picture, I'll take a couple of the original platter (modified to work with a direct drive type bearing). I will also post a picture of the bearing design.
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