guess I'm not the only one who doesn't sleep
Greg.
Ya, I was just being helpful, but I won't be re-designing what I already have done. And plinths are personal cosmetically and materials so what I have is what I'll use or at least access.
No commitee design here, I'm a dictator. I do have some pretty strong thoughts about what makes a good turntable:
I like suspensions, but feel unqualified to design one for a turntable
I still love my old Oracle Alex mk ll/SME 309/Grado Sig 8 MCZ
I wish I never sold my Heybrook TT2/Alphason Xenon setup
I have too many turntables (7-10 at any one time)
I want a Xerses/HR100 combo
I like wood
I like belts, but own and have liked some direct drives
The approach here was to basically begin by offering a good platter and bearing. These seem to be the toughest parts to access for most. Motors and control schemes usually can be cobbled together, as can a plinth. Tonearms are another budget breaker as well, so that may also be something to consider. I am still in awe of many who make great looking (and no doubt great sounding) tonearms with a pair of tin snips and an beer can. I have been attempting to source a DIY tonearm materials package, that if followed could give excellent performance, or some ready made solutions (Rega, Jelco, etc. maybe even some Technics if Matsushita would be willing).
The acrylic platter and bearing was/is something I have been working on, and it just makes sense to offer that as the "basis" (sorry for the Basis pun, but intended
). Good heavy, mass dampened designs are relatively easy, so that is where to offer the most for the least.
So I won't be doing any more, "what do you think?" posts anymore, nor individual help unless specific to the Bearing and platter , and their fit to appropriate plinths. That could be an interesting thread in the "analog" forum.
stew
Greg.
Ya, I was just being helpful, but I won't be re-designing what I already have done. And plinths are personal cosmetically and materials so what I have is what I'll use or at least access.
No commitee design here, I'm a dictator. I do have some pretty strong thoughts about what makes a good turntable:
I like suspensions, but feel unqualified to design one for a turntable
I still love my old Oracle Alex mk ll/SME 309/Grado Sig 8 MCZ
I wish I never sold my Heybrook TT2/Alphason Xenon setup
I have too many turntables (7-10 at any one time)
I want a Xerses/HR100 combo
I like wood
I like belts, but own and have liked some direct drives
The approach here was to basically begin by offering a good platter and bearing. These seem to be the toughest parts to access for most. Motors and control schemes usually can be cobbled together, as can a plinth. Tonearms are another budget breaker as well, so that may also be something to consider. I am still in awe of many who make great looking (and no doubt great sounding) tonearms with a pair of tin snips and an beer can. I have been attempting to source a DIY tonearm materials package, that if followed could give excellent performance, or some ready made solutions (Rega, Jelco, etc. maybe even some Technics if Matsushita would be willing).
The acrylic platter and bearing was/is something I have been working on, and it just makes sense to offer that as the "basis" (sorry for the Basis pun, but intended
). Good heavy, mass dampened designs are relatively easy, so that is where to offer the most for the least.So I won't be doing any more, "what do you think?" posts anymore, nor individual help unless specific to the Bearing and platter , and their fit to appropriate plinths. That could be an interesting thread in the "analog" forum.
stew
Re: steenoe...
Stew, thank you very much for the info. Its much appreiciated. I am new to working with TT's at a constructing level so the info is very valuable. Not new to TT's at a user level though, have been using them for 40 years
Looking forward to see what you end up with.
Nanook said:
Stew, thank you very much for the info. Its much appreiciated. I am new to working with TT's at a constructing level so the info is very valuable. Not new to TT's at a user level though, have been using them for 40 years
Looking forward to see what you end up with.
one more step closer...
it's looking like the platters and bearings are possible. just need to finalize the spec. I think they will come in near what I suggested earlier... $450 or less for both the platter and the bearing (together for one each)...43 mm platter...
Spent the day drawing and finalizing the shape/design of the platter bearing system,.
A little patience is all I ask for....
stew
it's looking like the platters and bearings are possible. just need to finalize the spec. I think they will come in near what I suggested earlier... $450 or less for both the platter and the bearing (together for one each)...43 mm platter...
Spent the day drawing and finalizing the shape/design of the platter bearing system,.
A little patience is all I ask for....
stew
listening to the "fixed" prototype...
and it kills.
more bass than the Oracle I have... a little more "hifi" --ish than the Oracle but not analytical at all. Replaced the artist's tape belt with 1/4" cassette tape.. excellent.
Initial responses have been that I may be able to beat the projected price...
stay tuned...
stew
and it kills.
more bass than the Oracle I have... a little more "hifi" --ish than the Oracle but not analytical at all. Replaced the artist's tape belt with 1/4" cassette tape.. excellent.
Initial responses have been that I may be able to beat the projected price...
stay tuned...
stew
sorry folks...for all the delays....
Well I had the bearing designed, but hated the possible motor height in regards to the bearings, so a re-design has happened. The idea is to use the "balanced mass" approach as per Verdier. To me this approach makes a lot of sense.
The "new" bearing (as a prototype) is at the machinist's, now being an inverted type. Once we get the bearing back and I dimension it exactly, and I get a quote on say 20 pairs of platter/bearings then we can set a price and a proposed delivery date. This is a little like the Maxon motor group buy, just that the delays are at the front end, instead of at the back end (thanks Sylvain).
I understand that many would like the bearing or platter, not both. I've taken that into consideration. It is easier to get the items as pairs---but enough about the logistics. Once the price is set, this will happen very quickly. I suggest as little as 14 days to receive the parts after the order is placed. Prior to ordering, the majority of those who are ordering will need to pay via Paypal (only because it is quickest and easiest), so as not to expose myself to the considerable financial liability. Of course, shipping and packaging charges will be charged on an individual basis. For my friends south of the 49th parallel, I'll take a drive to the states and ship via USPS or UPS. If I take the drive, it will save you on shipping charges.
Thanks to everyone for their patience. I guess I didn't realize the amount of time these things can take
Well I had the bearing designed, but hated the possible motor height in regards to the bearings, so a re-design has happened. The idea is to use the "balanced mass" approach as per Verdier. To me this approach makes a lot of sense.
The "new" bearing (as a prototype) is at the machinist's, now being an inverted type. Once we get the bearing back and I dimension it exactly, and I get a quote on say 20 pairs of platter/bearings then we can set a price and a proposed delivery date. This is a little like the Maxon motor group buy, just that the delays are at the front end, instead of at the back end (thanks Sylvain).
I understand that many would like the bearing or platter, not both. I've taken that into consideration. It is easier to get the items as pairs---but enough about the logistics. Once the price is set, this will happen very quickly. I suggest as little as 14 days to receive the parts after the order is placed. Prior to ordering, the majority of those who are ordering will need to pay via Paypal (only because it is quickest and easiest), so as not to expose myself to the considerable financial liability. Of course, shipping and packaging charges will be charged on an individual basis. For my friends south of the 49th parallel, I'll take a drive to the states and ship via USPS or UPS. If I take the drive, it will save you on shipping charges.
Thanks to everyone for their patience. I guess I didn't realize the amount of time these things can take
mantisory
well..you could.. but I think our stuff here might interest you a little. No, not a Teres, not as mass loaded as one, but the main plinth design is. I guess it depends on what you think is the best solution for you.
The platter is an acrylic one, with a .005" deep label area. 315 mm diameter platter, 43 mm thick. Now an inverted bearing type. But substantially less expensive than Teres. But not a direct competitor to the Teres products, simply not as massive overall. Unsure if Teres still offers an acrylic platter.
Please do not mis-construe this as a "slam" against Teres, Redpoint or Gibraltar turntables. What we will end up with here is a competaent turntable competing with many designs in the $3k range (including tonearm if reasonable quality--RB250 modded...etc).
I do have a line on some very nice RB250 tonearms with custom weight, "structural mods",...etc. Priced very well below the retail...
stew
well..you could.. but I think our stuff here might interest you a little. No, not a Teres, not as mass loaded as one, but the main plinth design is. I guess it depends on what you think is the best solution for you.
The platter is an acrylic one, with a .005" deep label area. 315 mm diameter platter, 43 mm thick. Now an inverted bearing type. But substantially less expensive than Teres. But not a direct competitor to the Teres products, simply not as massive overall. Unsure if Teres still offers an acrylic platter.
Please do not mis-construe this as a "slam" against Teres, Redpoint or Gibraltar turntables. What we will end up with here is a competaent turntable competing with many designs in the $3k range (including tonearm if reasonable quality--RB250 modded...etc).
I do have a line on some very nice RB250 tonearms with custom weight, "structural mods",...etc. Priced very well below the retail...
stew
I know this is prolly a bit late to chime in but i just finished my turntable project. I had my bearing made out of stainless steel and bronze. I had a delrin thrust plate made with a single hardened ball bearing (out of a roller bearing) at the bottom. It cost me about 80 bucks us. This was done a a local machine shop. The tolerances were so tight that when placed to gether the bearing would make an air seal and would not press together. I eventually polished the stainless and assembled with silicone oil.
I have a drawing at my thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53724
MY platter (aircraft grade al) cost me about 50 bucks and i had a tech college machine it on their spare time. To quote the professer "It is nice to have something for my students to make other than the generic builds" In fact they enjoyed making alot of my weird peices.
MY arcrillic knowledge is such. The thicker you go the expotentially more expensive the acrillic becomes. If you are going thicker than 1 inch you will have to glue multiple layes together much like teres does. The ahisive is weld on 3 and it is water thin one has to dip one half of the platter rough into it then carefully place and presss it onto the other side.
Good luck
FortyTwo
I have a drawing at my thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53724
MY platter (aircraft grade al) cost me about 50 bucks and i had a tech college machine it on their spare time. To quote the professer "It is nice to have something for my students to make other than the generic builds" In fact they enjoyed making alot of my weird peices.
MY arcrillic knowledge is such. The thicker you go the expotentially more expensive the acrillic becomes. If you are going thicker than 1 inch you will have to glue multiple layes together much like teres does. The ahisive is weld on 3 and it is water thin one has to dip one half of the platter rough into it then carefully place and presss it onto the other side.
Good luck
FortyTwo
agent.5 said:
True it is avalible. Because the thicker it is the longer it take for a sheet to cure it cost alot more to manufacture. a 12 inch by 12 inch by 4 inch peice from mmc costs 404.41 while a 1 inch sheet cost 40.41 (times 4 = 160.xx). These costs are also high compared to opening up your yellow pages and buying it locally. You can even ask if they have remenants that are big enough. I paid 35 bucks for a 1 inch peice to build my plynth out of. although a 2 inch 12 by 12 costs 72.84.
My only point is to be resourcefull. MY entire table is built out of oddes and ends. It doesn't hurt to ask. I just think that 450 dollars is a bit high, if you take the specs and drawings (i have one posted and gazzafloyd does also) to a machine shop ask how much it will costs. Find a plastic suppler get delrin and acrillic.
Thanks
Ed Owens
fortytwo makes some good points.
But I don't have access to a student to do the work in his spare time, nor can I count on one. Besides the DIY aspect, there is also the commercial considerations for the complete turntables.
as for fortytwo's bearing, I had a local "high-end"machine shop do a bearing that was totally unsatisfactory and it was over $300.
This group buy is in concert with the commercial product and is intended to supply some difficult to find, or terribly expensive parts at a reasonable cost. That way we can say with some pride that we built the table, and end up with something that actually looks and sounds the part.
I agree regarding the cost of acrylic, that many sheets can be had and glued and machined. Someplace I even suggested that to someone on this very forum (diyAudio) as a means of lowering costs. At a manufacturing level, the savings aere in favor of the single sheet approach.Same with the bearing...perhaps cheaper alternatives are out there.
But, and this is a big BUT, my proposed total costs to the group buy is something in the order of $400-450 for the pair. That's for a thick single piece 43mm platter and a high quality bearing, an optimized drive pulley location to help minimize friction (as per Verdier).
There are many ways to skin a cat. This is one way. Everybody is welcome to do as they please of course.
as far as the arms are concerned, I need to get enough interest to get em a decent price. They retail for $600
stew
But I don't have access to a student to do the work in his spare time, nor can I count on one. Besides the DIY aspect, there is also the commercial considerations for the complete turntables.
as for fortytwo's bearing, I had a local "high-end"machine shop do a bearing that was totally unsatisfactory and it was over $300.
This group buy is in concert with the commercial product and is intended to supply some difficult to find, or terribly expensive parts at a reasonable cost. That way we can say with some pride that we built the table, and end up with something that actually looks and sounds the part.
I agree regarding the cost of acrylic, that many sheets can be had and glued and machined. Someplace I even suggested that to someone on this very forum (diyAudio) as a means of lowering costs. At a manufacturing level, the savings aere in favor of the single sheet approach.Same with the bearing...perhaps cheaper alternatives are out there.
But, and this is a big BUT, my proposed total costs to the group buy is something in the order of $400-450 for the pair. That's for a thick single piece 43mm platter and a high quality bearing, an optimized drive pulley location to help minimize friction (as per Verdier).
There are many ways to skin a cat. This is one way. Everybody is welcome to do as they please of course.
as far as the arms are concerned, I need to get enough interest to get em a decent price. They retail for $600
stew
Nanook you mentioned your bearing you had made was unsatifactory. Was the issue in the design or was it in the tolerances?
A suggestion to help the GB save money would also be to have the platters not polished and allow the users to finish them. I know teres also used to offer this option. One can polish it with buffing it with a polishing wheel and compound or heat or hand sanding.
FortyTwo
A suggestion to help the GB save money would also be to have the platters not polished and allow the users to finish them. I know teres also used to offer this option. One can polish it with buffing it with a polishing wheel and compound or heat or hand sanding.
FortyTwo
the issue was...
the implementation. The design was my own, but was a throwback to the days of new Garrard 301s and Thorens 124s....but poorly implemented
No polishing of the platters, as this is labour intensive and expensive...and I like the look of "frosted" or natural machined look, and as you said Teres offered it as an option.
The bearing as it now stands is an inverted type with the design to allow the centre of the bearing to be at the CofG of the platter... I think I've pretty much finished with the parameters and the design (a third re-design). I have to simply stop and get a prototype delivered and tested to ensure satisfactory results, or else I dare say most or all will lose interest and get bored of promises.
we'd end up having the same discussions with each other in a month if I don't get this done, instead of spinning records on our new decks
stew
the implementation. The design was my own, but was a throwback to the days of new Garrard 301s and Thorens 124s....but poorly implemented
No polishing of the platters, as this is labour intensive and expensive...and I like the look of "frosted" or natural machined look, and as you said Teres offered it as an option.
The bearing as it now stands is an inverted type with the design to allow the centre of the bearing to be at the CofG of the platter... I think I've pretty much finished with the parameters and the design (a third re-design). I have to simply stop and get a prototype delivered and tested to ensure satisfactory results, or else I dare say most or all will lose interest and get bored of promises.
we'd end up having the same discussions with each other in a month if I don't get this done, instead of spinning records on our new decks
stew
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