no problem Gary...
I am sure than my ears are better than my eyes 😉...
My understanding with our last exchanges was Subbu were your reference DAC, above an other with ES9018 chip. You talked also about your 3A speaker and your tube amp in a thread if I remember. My bad I misunderstood but not sure it's very important for people here !🙂
I you have a second system more secret or than you prefer I appreciate you tell me more about it as you play a lot with DACS....
i stay with the idea, people prefer always a Dac to an another DAC when both owned! Maybe the TDA is better for you... once again here my eyes are less accurate than my ears to understand... An there is only 9 inches between my eyes and the screen monitor... I checked also !
Here we are with the idea between your advise we already understood and something else than bad existing kit... of course because the price, no mystery here ! Very humble position as it is just improve something as the one you have (because now shared for free at Audial website - some shematics... not all off course). i want to stay very pragmatic, but It's very hard too share.
Cheers
I am sure than my ears are better than my eyes 😉...
My understanding with our last exchanges was Subbu were your reference DAC, above an other with ES9018 chip. You talked also about your 3A speaker and your tube amp in a thread if I remember. My bad I misunderstood but not sure it's very important for people here !🙂
I you have a second system more secret or than you prefer I appreciate you tell me more about it as you play a lot with DACS....
i stay with the idea, people prefer always a Dac to an another DAC when both owned! Maybe the TDA is better for you... once again here my eyes are less accurate than my ears to understand... An there is only 9 inches between my eyes and the screen monitor... I checked also !
Here we are with the idea between your advise we already understood and something else than bad existing kit... of course because the price, no mystery here ! Very humble position as it is just improve something as the one you have (because now shared for free at Audial website - some shematics... not all off course). i want to stay very pragmatic, but It's very hard too share.
Cheers
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Amen.
Which ones did u have in mind?
So true...Good advice.
Second Amen.
If this is realized and accepted, then fine.
otherwise A LOT of money and time will be lost.
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Eldam,
I'm pragmatic too. I didn't mean to offend with my note. I just think sometimes people get excited about the best DAC (or the best other thing) and at some point it's not useful. With DIY, there are many choices and many paths to heaven. Trying to follow all of them can drive you crazy. Otherwise you end up with many paths started and none completed. The Subbu V3 DAC is very good. The Pedja TDA1541a DAC is very good. Depending upon the rest of the components, I like one better than the other. That's all I was trying to say. I do know that the Subbu V3 uses modern chips and thus is better is some important aspects. In particular, I think that the WM8804 receiver chip is better than the CS8414 in my Pedja DAC. It takes more work to optimize the SPDIF signal with the TDA1541a DAC.
---Gary
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This is not intended to discourage you, yet I fail to see how you are actually going to fulfill your declared aim.
Not only that you are extremely naïve, you don't have a hint of clue about what it takes to develop and produce SOTA (State Of The Art) audio gear, especially with digital part. You have no clue about the width and depth of electronics knowledge it takes, both analog and digital - and the amounts of time and money it takes. For instance, Thorsten Loesch designed and experimented with audio gear for many decades before he could develop something like the AMR CD-777
You think so, yet, this isn't the case.
You want to design an elephant by a committee. Different people will through in different ideas, with the (naive) hope that the end result will be any good.
Who is going to do all those redesigns? And if different people will come up with different ideas, who will be the judge to decide what idea to implement?
Which daughter board, or which kit is better than the AMR CD-777 output stage?
…
Anyhow, you are welcomed to go on with your efforts.
Time will tell what may be the degree of your success.
Not only that you are extremely naïve, you don't have a hint of clue about what it takes to develop and produce SOTA (State Of The Art) audio gear, especially with digital part. You have no clue about the width and depth of electronics knowledge it takes, both analog and digital - and the amounts of time and money it takes. For instance, Thorsten Loesch designed and experimented with audio gear for many decades before he could develop something like the AMR CD-777
You are deluding yourself.
You think so, yet, this isn't the case.
You want to design an elephant by a committee. Different people will through in different ideas, with the (naive) hope that the end result will be any good.
Who is going to do all those redesigns? And if different people will come up with different ideas, who will be the judge to decide what idea to implement?
Which daughter board, or which kit is better than the AMR CD-777 output stage?
…
Who is going to do a PCB design better than the AMR's one? (You said you want something better than the AMR…).
Anyhow, you are welcomed to go on with your efforts.
Time will tell what may be the degree of your success.
I'm sure you always here repeat the same things for gentle reasons !
But understand here there are many people with good equipments, great knowledge, great professional experience or DIY !
Some leads were offered to fight against the more difficults problems, which are
- ego : with goodwilling
- time : with divide designs and multiplicate sharing, have a dead line of six months.
- money : with GB for testing and printing
- synergies : specialist with specialist and so on
- limiting the effort by something in the middle way between the branded & the crap kits !
All above can be resolved with smart sharing and good willing, but repeat all time than we all just already understood here :
- ref expensive device is always better than DIY but the specialists already (semi-pros or pros, some of them benchmarking ideas : technical, marketing either sometimes : I don't talk for those people)
- Buy an already kit (that just don't exist good enough for TDA 1541 )
- Everybody want to have the last word which is just stay seated instead a group advance.
Hé... I give up like it's more here like a competition to the individual better system than tempting to have fun with an old dac chip in grup!
Hope AUdiolapdance will suceess with the other idea : GB of new old stock devices with Pedja. If he succees, my contribution and lost time (not for me, was happy to share and do that.... and believe me as I have more important priorities in this moment) would have not for nothing ! 🙂
But understand here there are many people with good equipments, great knowledge, great professional experience or DIY !
Some leads were offered to fight against the more difficults problems, which are
- ego : with goodwilling
- time : with divide designs and multiplicate sharing, have a dead line of six months.
- money : with GB for testing and printing
- synergies : specialist with specialist and so on
- limiting the effort by something in the middle way between the branded & the crap kits !
All above can be resolved with smart sharing and good willing, but repeat all time than we all just already understood here :
- ref expensive device is always better than DIY but the specialists already (semi-pros or pros, some of them benchmarking ideas : technical, marketing either sometimes : I don't talk for those people)
- Buy an already kit (that just don't exist good enough for TDA 1541 )
- Everybody want to have the last word which is just stay seated instead a group advance.
Hé... I give up like it's more here like a competition to the individual better system than tempting to have fun with an old dac chip in grup!
Hope AUdiolapdance will suceess with the other idea : GB of new old stock devices with Pedja. If he succees, my contribution and lost time (not for me, was happy to share and do that.... and believe me as I have more important priorities in this moment) would have not for nothing ! 🙂
I haven't listened to these at home but at Audio Shows, I have heard Ayre DACs and MSB DACs that I thought were very impressive.
I have listened to DACs like the Benchmark or Mytek at home and thought that they were OK but not better than my DIY efforts. In fact I like my DIY DACs better. I have heard good things about AMR products and respect their designer but haven't heard them.
---Gary
Please, I know my english is very bad, but you are wrong, I always write the same here :I never say I want to do best than AMR : but something between AMR and the crap kit. Rewrited : better than the crap kit and of course no better than AMR, are we fools ? Not you, not me, not the others, nobody here in fact! All your problem came from you reading is fast (and also my english bad ! of course !)
I have maybe wrote ten times the same thing, i can't just understand why you write I want to do best than AMR...😕
Daughter boards for outputstages is maybe the only things which can be made better than AMR (By T Loesch himself) with best design with tubes, better NOS tubes, better transformers than caps outputs; but it's not important if all the design before is crap (inputs and core board). Only here not because we are smarter but here we have not industrial process and commercial standards for mas market to respect !
i gave a very good links above for tubes kit : there are Gomez you can try if you want.
But I am not astonished by the fact once again you come back to the AMR CD-777 as the only thing than interrested you is to have better.
That was not my attempt, here it was for me for a lot of people has the half quality of this CD player and more than half the price because sharing effort !
repeating always than people can not do that is not positiv attitude. Anyway, alone, that's true. And for arbiting I repeat enough than a good project manager can be enough (but I am not but I try as i am positiv) : it's not about technic, it's about arbiting; that's people call : project manager; for better result he add fluidity not technical arbriting : specialists know already about technic.
I'm afraid you have nothing to teach me about the difficulty of RF, but once again, some people know RF here ! And in all the others process needed ! You underestimate people.... but maybe their goodwilling. I'm not naive about technical process as my last ten years job was IT manager ... I know enough things to start from nothing to create an IT department in all management and technicals process for a company of 500 workers with a lot of sites abroad... You just undersestimate people or have no faith in them...
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My dear friends:
I admire your drive and engagement, but please remember that your
goal was to create a fairly good TDA1541-based DAC, not just another DAC GB.
The best DIY dac, imho, is still the Tentdac (old one).
This is because Tentlabs has kindly shared the results of their massive research in their competently
documented archive on their sister-site (which you may use and should).
Everything that is needed to know about Reference Class dac design is:
- deciphered
- explained
- and depicted
in a very clear, simple and kosher language.
Electronics Design is based on clearly-defined objectives, defined available resources, and acceptable compromises.
Making these decisions require planning and a lot of relevant knowledge and experience.
Use the knowledge provided to you in the Tentdac documents
and see why the decisions are made the way they have.
Frankly I am shocked to see that no one seems to care much about this wealth of information
on Applied Mixed Signal Electronics w.r.t. Audio dac design.
I was asked a while ago about recommendations on PSU Design for TDA15xx based DACs.
Although I honestly do not consider myself an expert,
but I shared the results of my research, yet it was simply neglected, and the discussion goes
on and on about SMD Mega Super Ultra Low Noise Shunt Regulators.
I really do not understand what the reason for this might be?
My advice, at this stage, would be (based on what you have proposed so far) to base your design on a well executed platform.
Then modify the platform (which may prove to be very slight) to accommodate your choice of DAC chip.
I made this humble suggestion many posts ago, yet it has gone by unnoticed.😕
I admire your drive and engagement, but please remember that your
goal was to create a fairly good TDA1541-based DAC, not just another DAC GB.
The best DIY dac, imho, is still the Tentdac (old one).
This is because Tentlabs has kindly shared the results of their massive research in their competently
documented archive on their sister-site (which you may use and should).
Everything that is needed to know about Reference Class dac design is:
- deciphered
- explained
- and depicted
in a very clear, simple and kosher language.
Electronics Design is based on clearly-defined objectives, defined available resources, and acceptable compromises.
Making these decisions require planning and a lot of relevant knowledge and experience.
Use the knowledge provided to you in the Tentdac documents
and see why the decisions are made the way they have.
Frankly I am shocked to see that no one seems to care much about this wealth of information
on Applied Mixed Signal Electronics w.r.t. Audio dac design.
I was asked a while ago about recommendations on PSU Design for TDA15xx based DACs.
Although I honestly do not consider myself an expert,
but I shared the results of my research, yet it was simply neglected, and the discussion goes
on and on about SMD Mega Super Ultra Low Noise Shunt Regulators.
I really do not understand what the reason for this might be?
My advice, at this stage, would be (based on what you have proposed so far) to base your design on a well executed platform.
Then modify the platform (which may prove to be very slight) to accommodate your choice of DAC chip.
I made this humble suggestion many posts ago, yet it has gone by unnoticed.😕
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Thanks, but the palms are for people like VanoFonk which are the only one who share something concret (I'm not talking about designs ideas, all advices were excelent).
if words are important, and as I am a french they are : I wrote : Good enough : that is just your interpretation or Joshua's one.... as you have already good devices.
I read all your words and notice your suggestion with consideration as I think the same for most of all. Tents is problematic because of lake of PCM63 K genuine chip on the market as already noticed above...
But we are not going to fight for to know who are right or wrong : it is just sterile and personaly don't want to fight for ego consideration !
I just notice one thing : people most of the time have more time and words to critiq than to add to a process... and loose so many times to repeat that.
Sometimes in forums all around the world : people have time to write you they have no time to answer you. Or that you have too many questions but don't want answer sometimes to the easier ! notice it is not second degree and not for you Alexiss. Nobody is directly targett, but some bad psychological attitude as persistant and getting older fix nothing ! But be sure I am the first to be perfectible as I 'm only 45 soon !
Ok forgett my project...🙂
I admire your drive and engagement.
What I mean is:
Tentlab dac can be used and modified as a (well engineered) platform to accommodate the TDA15xx chip.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-56.html#post3860938
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-59.html#post3870559
What I mean is:
Tentlab dac can be used and modified as a (well engineered) platform to accommodate the TDA15xx chip.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-56.html#post3860938
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-59.html#post3870559
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But don't exist already as final working kit... so need a little sharing to be adapted for the majority of basics diyers here.
But be sure as I'm going to have more time for me, that's a way I will investigate !
Notice there is a need : 4 000 readings in 3 weeks ! AudioLapdance is the last hope of humanity to have good enough music at home for a more democratic price than western devices (sorry with TDA chip I mean)! I hope also young managers and professors will read this thread as the perfect exemple to do bad with project management. Let's stay positiv : there are always somethings to give and to learn from experiences.
See you elswhere in others threads.
But be sure as I'm going to have more time for me, that's a way I will investigate !
Notice there is a need : 4 000 readings in 3 weeks ! AudioLapdance is the last hope of humanity to have good enough music at home for a more democratic price than western devices (sorry with TDA chip I mean)! I hope also young managers and professors will read this thread as the perfect exemple to do bad with project management. Let's stay positiv : there are always somethings to give and to learn from experiences.
See you elswhere in others threads.
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Alexiss,
It's interesting that you still like the Tentdac. I need to study that website more closely to see what they did.
You mention your recommendations for PSU Design. Are you referring to your post #639 in this thread? Comparing that to the original Pedja DAC, he uses LM317 / LM337 supplies for +-5v and a LM7824 preregulator plus TL431 shunt for the -15v supply. So there is room for improvement based on your experience.
In the experiments with the Subbu DAC mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I found that the preregulator IC had a profound effect on the sound quality. LC prefiltering for the regulator was important and modern regulators were much better than older LM317 style regulators. I have had good experience with the LT1764 and also the LT1963.
---Gary
I apologize to you all, maybe I am not being clear enough:
The technical knowledge provided by Tentlabs on their sister
site can be used in your own designs, not necessarily their pcb (but if you can get it, do it).
That is all I ask...
It was during my painfully exhaustive and embarrassingly expensive research
in HW dac design that I discovered Tentlabs.
The principles presented on their DAC site (old one) is sound EMC design practices and
specially the hard-to-find Applied knowledge on HW Audio Dac
Design (that cost yours truly a small fortune and many wasted years to acquire).
Yes.
Yes, Pre Regulators and nothing else. LM3xx are also fine as pre regulators.
As pre regulators I could not find any major sonic difference between LM3xx and LM7xxx.
It is all about the implementation, and less about the actual chips (regulators) used.
Hallellujah, at last
(tears of j) .....God bless you man.
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Once again, I wholeheartedly apologize for my somewhat perfectionistic view on Audio dacs.
Remember:
there are many TDA1541-based DACs and kits (ebay + alibaba etc) that can sound fairly ok, but
getting the outmost performance from these kits require massive modifications.
At the end, their inherent layout issues become painfully obvious and prohibitive.
Remember:
there are many TDA1541-based DACs and kits (ebay + alibaba etc) that can sound fairly ok, but
getting the outmost performance from these kits require massive modifications.
At the end, their inherent layout issues become painfully obvious and prohibitive.
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I wish you all good luck.
Yet, you don't have even a faint clue what developing decent DAC kit involves. It looks very simple to you, while it isn't.
You try to coerce others to do it for you. My estimate is that it wouldn't work.
Well, this is what you wrote, as I quoted you.
Because this is what you wrote.
On what do you base it? What makes think so?
Your attempts to coerce me to do your work for you wouldn't work. (It looks to me that none else is going to fall for it).
Indeed. Why would I spend 1 hour or $1 for something less good than what I have already?
Possibly it's a realistic estimate.
Who is going to be that project manager?
I wish you all good luck.
Time will tell the outcome of your idea.
BTW, I was paid a good salary to do RF designs.
Possibly I underestimate other people, possibly I'm realistic because of I do know, from experience, what it takes.
Time will tell who is correct here.
I wish you all good luck.
Yet, you don't have even a faint clue what developing decent DAC kit involves. It looks very simple to you, while it isn't.
You try to coerce others to do it for you. My estimate is that it wouldn't work.
No I share what I have, a little time, but as you say no technical knowledge. But you you just share negativ attitude and lend it to others.
Well, this is what you wrote, as I quoted you.
You paste half of my phrases. You are just ill faith, auto-centred and only want to have the last word. You just have time for you, not the others, I show quite the opposit attitude than yours.
Because this is what you wrote.
No at all. But tell bad things, it will stay something : is it your strategy?
On what do you base it? What makes think so?
Ask for soomeone you have trust... it seems I have a better clue than you about analog stages 😛
Your attempts to coerce me to do your work for you wouldn't work. (It looks to me that none else is going to fall for it).
Paranoid you are, i just tried not to save my time to ask a little help from a maximum of people to make short contributions. And are you not the OP with a very naive question also ?
Indeed. Why would I spend 1 hour or $1 for something less good than what I have already?
And why you spend so much time to repeat you have the best. already ? Ibidem above. I'm searching a better word for that but pardon my english ! Hé for me the question of your non- participation was already ruled before, why do you insist about that ? Ibidem why spending so much time on it ?
Possibly it's a realistic estimate.
No just auto satisfaction
Who is going to be that project manager?
I try to beginn, this can be many people, you because if you have energy an time for sterile maybe you have for constructiv
I wish you all good luck. thanks, but something say to me you are not sinceer. But please, take your time, I wrote above I give up... happy ?
Time will tell the outcome of your idea.
BTW, I was paid a good salary to do RF designs. Oh you could design RF with others.... money money money... could be funny in a rich men worldNote at the end you write very often about money than taking time to add positiv free contribution but critics
Possibly I underestimate other people, possibly I'm realistic because of I do know, from experience, what it takes. we have here the only man whith experience... I appreciate your advice
Time will tell who is correct here. No body care but you, you, only you. It's not a competition, if it would be you have not subtilitie enough but maybe the art to waste my time
My Joshua, once again, nobody care, neither I. Dialectic again is not life... just pay somebody for that. I appreciate your effort to convene me to dialectic exchange. hé it works a little, you really take me for a fool 😀. I respect you but just don't care or have no time just for you but try a little help... which was done...and free 😀. Of course i try also to help me, but once again not with bad attitude you lend to me. I jus give what I have : goodwill and a little time. I go further : you are right if it can give you peace and less agressivity. 🙂 I really have no time for childish or individual game. I can understand just your toy is good enough and everybody here understood that as you repeat it... have you a doubt at the end ? Maybe there are better, but not in kit, you have a good toy
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I love HIFI always have and always will... the potential for this great chip makes it very challenging to work with hope we can focus on this instead of personal distractions.I just want the best for everyone.. sorry i cant offer anything technical.
For some reason I'm reminded of this speech by John Belushi: Bluto's Speech from Animal House - YouTube
---Gary
---Gary
Sigh ... 🙄
Gentlemen please chillaxe!
Let's start at the beginning, Joshua started this thread looking for a decent 1541 kit. There doesn't seem to be one. But he's happy with his very developed and very complex commercial product, so really isn't looking anymore. I am and it appears others are.
Tent DAC can't be easily modded for the 1541, so can we drop that. Yes the Tent Labs info is good but we have DIY 1541 specific info from Thorsten already and we just need to implement it.
I didn't say I was going to org a group buy for reissued Pedja PCBs. I don't think that's a good idea because the VofM PCB should be better than his old ones (no SM caps, no I2S atten, no dem reclock) and his newer ones will probably be too complex and not DIY friendly. Gary I think a working VofM PCB should be better than what you have.
If you want to develop a super 1541 design please start a new thread.
Elman, I think your English is getting in the way.
The Sabbu DAC is a completely different design (delta sigma [or mixed] vs old multibit) and isn't what we're after here.
This isn't my thread but I think I'm capturing the spirit. A decent 1541 DAC PCB. We have specific advice from Thorsten and a 80% PCB, we just need to implement it, get some PCBs made and test it.
If you want a whole redesign then please start another thread.
So once again, see post 717 and let's get going:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-72.html#post3882240
Does anyone recognize the design SW? Is anyone who's half decent at PCB layout gonna step up?
Please no more words, words, words about design. We need to implement the design that Thorsten gave us! (Or at least take the words to a different thread!)
I swear this is like herding cats! (I hope that translates well)
Gentlemen please chillaxe!
Let's start at the beginning, Joshua started this thread looking for a decent 1541 kit. There doesn't seem to be one. But he's happy with his very developed and very complex commercial product, so really isn't looking anymore. I am and it appears others are.
Tent DAC can't be easily modded for the 1541, so can we drop that. Yes the Tent Labs info is good but we have DIY 1541 specific info from Thorsten already and we just need to implement it.
I didn't say I was going to org a group buy for reissued Pedja PCBs. I don't think that's a good idea because the VofM PCB should be better than his old ones (no SM caps, no I2S atten, no dem reclock) and his newer ones will probably be too complex and not DIY friendly. Gary I think a working VofM PCB should be better than what you have.
If you want to develop a super 1541 design please start a new thread.
Elman, I think your English is getting in the way.
The Sabbu DAC is a completely different design (delta sigma [or mixed] vs old multibit) and isn't what we're after here.
This isn't my thread but I think I'm capturing the spirit. A decent 1541 DAC PCB. We have specific advice from Thorsten and a 80% PCB, we just need to implement it, get some PCBs made and test it.
If you want a whole redesign then please start another thread.
So once again, see post 717 and let's get going:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-72.html#post3882240
Does anyone recognize the design SW? Is anyone who's half decent at PCB layout gonna step up?
Please no more words, words, words about design. We need to implement the design that Thorsten gave us! (Or at least take the words to a different thread!)
I swear this is like herding cats! (I hope that translates well)
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