Hi Audiolapdance. Thanks for the response.
Yes I thought it might bve very helpfull to actually see pics of the implementation.
The schematics is all there, and quite informative I might add.
cheers.
Interresting...
But don't forgett that people do with what they have, know, and what they can understand... advance is better than stay in the spot, I think we are more in the "will" than in the "hope" as it is a common synergie with goddwilled people! If one point is bad and if writted, people can discuss it. In the same way I think when precise point or problem will be highligthed... specialist will answer to precise question at this moment only, step by step, little by little.
LM 3xxx are less noisy than 7xxx if we go on the bulk side. In fact I believed it was a good solution to have the pre reg like that or with shunt reg to drop the impedance and then ending near the dac chip with smd "anti noise" ldo reg with ultra precise voltage.
I am happy to see the name of Nazar fellow as i have great admiration for the "man with the cat picture" on him avatar logo... I'm sure he has a TDA1541 singing from many years.
I will no discuss about regs as it's not the place here and things are positively accelerate. Ok very short emiter follower reg with TL431 ref and without global feedback can be made... maybe noiser enough for TDA1541. TL431 just for its local feedback need a big enough uF value... it takes just more space but can be populate less close to the dac chip than the smd reg...
I will have a personnal look at the pictures of pcbs above.
Vano used TL431 but is there enough place for the local decoupling of it (minimum 1000 uF with 0.1 uF smd or PLASTIC mkt) ?
Thanks you for this input about regs.
Is there photographs on print reviews (or web ones) about the AMR DC-77 around the TDA 1541 and smd caps ?
I know T Loesch use for big caps value the ancient velvet ocscon from Sanyo (old polymer technologie soung better then the new one if I remember). they have a stock at AMR but for DIYER it can be find anymore. The SEPC oscon are less "mat" and the treble are thinner than old oscon when feeding a dac chip ; I try myself as I have genuine both caps. each time the old won, just maybe a little less details in the backgroung that's all and in reallity you never hearings the little details than recoording engeener capture)
just 2 cents...
I know T Loesch use for big caps value the ancient velvet ocscon from Sanyo (old polymer technologie soung better then the new one if I remember). they have a stock at AMR but for DIYER it can be find anymore. The SEPC oscon are less "mat" and the treble are thinner than old oscon when feeding a dac chip ; I try myself as I have genuine both caps. each time the old won, just maybe a little less details in the backgroung that's all and in reallity you never hearings the little details than recoording engeener capture)
just 2 cents...
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I concur with everything you wrote here. The fractions I quoted from your words I find especially important.
Sure... i agree also.🙄
And in a global project different people can advance in different subjects at the same time, notice the avancement then merge at the end... the principal main is that people don't restrain the others to do so or it takes more time for the project. That this way all the industrial projects are managed, but sure we are enthusiasts here
It is more complicated with a forum as all the discsussion has a vertical arrangement. But if people notice, keep the informations, use paste and copy for sinceer reason, it can works.... In a symphony we don't want than each musicians play one after the other... then the conductor(s).
And in a global project different people can advance in different subjects at the same time, notice the avancement then merge at the end... the principal main is that people don't restrain the others to do so or it takes more time for the project. That this way all the industrial projects are managed, but sure we are enthusiasts here
It is more complicated with a forum as all the discsussion has a vertical arrangement. But if people notice, keep the informations, use paste and copy for sinceer reason, it can works.... In a symphony we don't want than each musicians play one after the other... then the conductor(s).
Eldam; said:
No question about it. But if the advancement is not towards a common
and a well-defined goal, it will keep on spinning in circles till it runs out of steam.
Eldam; said:
I agree, there are many competent people here.
I am sorry Eldam, I am not quite clear on what you mean. I am sure a pic can say more than a thousand words...
FYI, I did quite a bit of work on regulators many years ago.
Just for the record; you'd be surprised what u can accomplish with a lowly soon 45 year old LM7805...
It's all about the 'I' word: Implementation ;-)
Hi Mr Joshua_G
Thank you for the honor.
The above-mentioned quots are unfortunately the bitter-sweet results of the
massive amount of time and money that was invested into DAC design.
As you know, the stone was always there, but it demanded a Michelangelo to carve a David out of it.
We are not trying to create a David, but remember:
creating a good performance dac is not at all a trivial task.
It is exeedingly difficult to create it from scratch.
I am trying to find a good starting point for the guys here to build upon.
-
Sure... i agree also.🙄
... the principal main is that people don't restrain the others to do so or it takes more time for the project.
That this way all the industrial projects are managed, but sure we are enthusiasts here
.... In a symphony we don't want than each musicians play one after the other... then the conductor(s).
I agree.
Actually looking at this very thread, I think all the necessary info is slowly being collected to
create a fairly decent TDA1541 based dac.
-cheers
Hi Alexiss,
I appreciate a lot than you jump from "it's impossible (but Tents kit)" of the beginning to the "good starting point" of now. Of course it's not trivial but as you wrote, here there are a lot of non trivial people as well. All is a question of synergie, we are none alone Sisyph, if the stone drop (as all project are a cycling wheel à la Demning) many people will move it together and some specialist for the difficult places.
I had good result also with 7xxx family reg in tweaked CD players. I love when they have at the output an old chemical cap between 20 to 2000 uF (with diode protection or polarised in class A with a resistor) with very high ESR and some Black Gate before with extensive inductor filtering before !
About the emiter folower with standalone transitor and TL431 for ref: I was talking about the decoupling of the TL 431 itself (local feedback) only : it needs 1000 uF minimum with low esr cap close to it... so you need space as those caps are a little huge (you have some with 2.5 mm spacing between leads). That's all I wanted to say ! here i was not talking about the cap after the emitter of the transistor at the output nore the cap at the C input. And yes..we need then a cap at the output of the transistor : so two big cap to populate the pcb... that's why I spoke about smd ldo regs near the dac chip.
My idea was to use such design or more complicated Salas one outside the DAC board and near the TDA a smaller LDO smd regs like the Micrel 205 serie for ultra stable voltage and low noise near the DAC chip.
But T Loesch seems there are no needs if we read him testimonies above, 7 family reg is suffisant...let's go. That's why also I ask for photograps of th ecore board of him CD-77 : I'm sure we are able to see what he used : smd reg, smd caps, smd resistor or not or both with bulk ones !
I'm agree both with you and Audiolapdance as i wrote already, AudiolapDance has pragmatic Focus with Vanofonk already existing board (you see it's possible Alexiss... I joke but with all due of respect, I do my french here !) and T. Loesch road map. It will be easier, faster than my initial best of breeds hope... If only people could have yhis good enough at the end it will be fantastic. We could ask to oliver to print it for us if Vano agree... one synergie more !
Any return from Vano about the datas of him screen pcb and design software he used: maybe it is on the web platform he used for all him V14 revisions ?!
I appreciate a lot than you jump from "it's impossible (but Tents kit)" of the beginning to the "good starting point" of now. Of course it's not trivial but as you wrote, here there are a lot of non trivial people as well. All is a question of synergie, we are none alone Sisyph, if the stone drop (as all project are a cycling wheel à la Demning) many people will move it together and some specialist for the difficult places.
I had good result also with 7xxx family reg in tweaked CD players. I love when they have at the output an old chemical cap between 20 to 2000 uF (with diode protection or polarised in class A with a resistor) with very high ESR and some Black Gate before with extensive inductor filtering before !
About the emiter folower with standalone transitor and TL431 for ref: I was talking about the decoupling of the TL 431 itself (local feedback) only : it needs 1000 uF minimum with low esr cap close to it... so you need space as those caps are a little huge (you have some with 2.5 mm spacing between leads). That's all I wanted to say ! here i was not talking about the cap after the emitter of the transistor at the output nore the cap at the C input. And yes..we need then a cap at the output of the transistor : so two big cap to populate the pcb... that's why I spoke about smd ldo regs near the dac chip.
My idea was to use such design or more complicated Salas one outside the DAC board and near the TDA a smaller LDO smd regs like the Micrel 205 serie for ultra stable voltage and low noise near the DAC chip.
But T Loesch seems there are no needs if we read him testimonies above, 7 family reg is suffisant...let's go. That's why also I ask for photograps of th ecore board of him CD-77 : I'm sure we are able to see what he used : smd reg, smd caps, smd resistor or not or both with bulk ones !
I'm agree both with you and Audiolapdance as i wrote already, AudiolapDance has pragmatic Focus with Vanofonk already existing board (you see it's possible Alexiss... I joke but with all due of respect, I do my french here !) and T. Loesch road map. It will be easier, faster than my initial best of breeds hope... If only people could have yhis good enough at the end it will be fantastic. We could ask to oliver to print it for us if Vano agree... one synergie more !
Any return from Vano about the datas of him screen pcb and design software he used: maybe it is on the web platform he used for all him V14 revisions ?!
Slow trickle!?!? There were two huge deluges!
Post #709
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-71.html#post3880972
Post #306
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...any-good-tda1541a-dac-kit-36.html#post2887893
😉
Indeed, it is so. To some people who don't have extensive experience with designing, implementing and building good-sounding DAC, or even fairly-decent-sounding DAC, it may look as trivial, yet in reality, in the light of experience, it is extremely difficult. It's a task that requires deep knowledge, vast experience and massive investment in time and money.
For a small fraction of time and money it may take to do it from a scratch, there are available DACs, or kits, (though not with the TDA1541A DAC chip), which probably sound better than what people would probably come up with, in the route suggested here.
Your good will and your willingness to support and assist are noted, welcomed and appreciated.
Yet, even when a good starting point is given, it will take massive investment in time and money. On top of that, it seems to me unattainable without deep knowledge and vast experience.
Even in this thread alone, directly and via links, there is all the information needed to have first class schematic, including PSU, regulators, I-V and analog output stage. It seems to me that the fact that the information is there, it isn't enough. It takes someone with enough knowledge and experience to choose the right solutions and discard the less good ones.
Than a complete schematic is to be drawn.
Than all the necessary components are to be ordered.
Than a PCB, or few PCB's, need to be designed and drawn. The PCB design isn't less demanding than any previous stage. Of course, the PCB design should follow the chosen complete schematic.
Than the PCB(s) should be ordered.
Than it/they should be checked and assembled.
Than the DAC should be listened to and compared to available, reasonably priced, DAC kits.
Probably, following the above, it will be found that some changes are called for.
Than all the above stages need to be repeated, may be once, possibly few times.
Only than one would know which may sound better (the built DAC, or the available kit), and by this, that one would know if his investment in time and money was justified, or not.
In any case, I don't see how it can be accomplished by 'a committee', with the (probably vain) hope that a suitable 'project manager' would come up and volunteer - and - most important - without a volunteering, experienced and competent PCB designer. No matter how good the schematic may be, the DAC will not sound better than the PCB design and implementation.
As far as I see it, it is doable by someone with enough knowledge and experience, including digital, analog, PSU's and PCB design - if that individual will be willing to invest the time and money that such a project requires (in order to attain even a decent-sounding DAC).
It is my assessment that a commercial design will sound better and cost less than such a project.
As someone wrote here recently, the foreseen justification for embarking such a project is for someone who may do it for the joy of doing-it-oneself. I don't see how others, who want primarily to save money, are going to attain decent results, as good as some available kits, with less money investment. Especially when the suggested route is by 'a committee'.
If my above assessments of the situation are correct, or not - time will tell.
Some people view my attitude as negative.
To my view, my comments here are all positive.
Informing others what such a project requires, in order for it to be successful, is done in an attempt to save them wasting time and money by taking incorrect and inappropriate route.
No, i meant it is not possible to create a cd-77 or cd-777 cheap, but it is possible to create a fairly good dac.
I would appreciate a schematics on all this, I have a little difficulty following the words.
-Bonne chance!
Delta to Pi :
People stay free of their time & money and free to share it or not and free to read it or not. It is not about slavery here, abusing people here. Fellows are smart enough and free enough to do what they want. Finally smart enough to have such assessments by themselves. i will be unhappy at the end if you were right, not for me but such a synergie can not work. Do you see all the time we have with sharing WC philosophy and managings fears than thinking "action". And I didn't say "Blind action" !
Things given can not be view with reproach after. Fellows are responsible of their own acts and big boys. I will the first not to ask about an after sale manager if the times i gave to coerc people will be lost ! I give it for free with enough hope it will work but will not cry if not. And i spend time to write with my slow and horrible english !
Carrefull warnings were wrote at the beginning : we don't want a SOTA result, we want better than existing crap kit or the better ones here to be improved... That's all. Time advertising were given : I proposed 6 months, but people are free or not to let this modest project live or not.
it's not a competition between each others and/or brands or semi-pro... Like a more efficient fellow say and more shorter than i 'm able to in this language : "let's try but being not blind"
I double agree than a personal DIY can cost more than a good branded device, here we are just talking about synergies and free time given (for the people who have it and want it only, free you stay of course) and at least massive GB with few cents if test have to be done. i think improve and focus on the existing last 30 years finding is more easy than making a space ship from craft... it's not the goal here... just good enough". OK it's not trivial, but maybe sometimes we are as helpless as a babe. Here there is no plot or false given hopes. We try to shake the synergies no to steal fellows about their, money, times, hopes or whatever. I always thinked people here are smart... but have pain to work together with more efficienty. because it stay an hobby, but have suceess together is a great experience, and just the way to affoard it can be great enough.
Finaly I appreciated the Nazar name input. And sorry to be so long because I can't manage the answer like in my mother language.
@ AUdiolapdance : Vanofonk seems to be very busy, is he agree for giving with non commercial design what he drawed
People stay free of their time & money and free to share it or not and free to read it or not. It is not about slavery here, abusing people here. Fellows are smart enough and free enough to do what they want. Finally smart enough to have such assessments by themselves. i will be unhappy at the end if you were right, not for me but such a synergie can not work. Do you see all the time we have with sharing WC philosophy and managings fears than thinking "action". And I didn't say "Blind action" !
Things given can not be view with reproach after. Fellows are responsible of their own acts and big boys. I will the first not to ask about an after sale manager if the times i gave to coerc people will be lost ! I give it for free with enough hope it will work but will not cry if not. And i spend time to write with my slow and horrible english !
Carrefull warnings were wrote at the beginning : we don't want a SOTA result, we want better than existing crap kit or the better ones here to be improved... That's all. Time advertising were given : I proposed 6 months, but people are free or not to let this modest project live or not.
it's not a competition between each others and/or brands or semi-pro... Like a more efficient fellow say and more shorter than i 'm able to in this language : "let's try but being not blind"
I double agree than a personal DIY can cost more than a good branded device, here we are just talking about synergies and free time given (for the people who have it and want it only, free you stay of course) and at least massive GB with few cents if test have to be done. i think improve and focus on the existing last 30 years finding is more easy than making a space ship from craft... it's not the goal here... just good enough". OK it's not trivial, but maybe sometimes we are as helpless as a babe. Here there is no plot or false given hopes. We try to shake the synergies no to steal fellows about their, money, times, hopes or whatever. I always thinked people here are smart... but have pain to work together with more efficienty. because it stay an hobby, but have suceess together is a great experience, and just the way to affoard it can be great enough.
Finaly I appreciated the Nazar name input. And sorry to be so long because I can't manage the answer like in my mother language.
@ AUdiolapdance : Vanofonk seems to be very busy, is he agree for giving with non commercial design what he drawed
@ alexiss : I draw it and send to your PM as it is very trivial and can not add to the discussion here. I'm sure you know what is it but can not understand because my english.
I have tried to get this point across.
100% right on the money.
So true it is.
True.
As mentined earlier, doing what you just described will take a couple of years (3 and more). It looks like the people here wanna do this.
Mine as well.
(who might that be? 😀) Well, it seems the followers of this thread changed their objective from 'something to challenge the cd-777' to 'fairly good'.
They wanna do it. I just wish they would not spend as much time and money as i did.
For that i felt that i had to help them find a good platform so that they wont loose 10 years of their lives developing (the chronicals of Mr John Brown aka ECDesigns, Mr. T, etc)
As mentined earlier, my getting involved with DAC design was financially very exhausting and unacceptably time-consuming and i never had anything decent to listen to.
After following your thread for a couple of years, i could not hold my tongue any more, and just wanted to inform the guys here about the consequences of 'venturing into fairly uncharted territories'.
I think all your inputs, have been very valuable.
My intentions from the very first post (and still).
I do not believe so.
Something trivial to you might be very educational for the rest of us.
-cheers
I just recently found out about this gentleman.
I will take a closer look at his comprehensive homepage.
I don't know anything about this gentleman's background,
however, looking at some of the technical solutions he has presented,
I clearly see an 'understanding' that is a direct consequence of
many years of burning your fingers on the soldering station.
-
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Alexiss, believe me than an emiter follower without global feedback & TL431 reg is so trivial than you laugh at it when you see it... It really can not add information to a man like you or for the project. I don't want to brake AudioLapdance whom is more focused about the first point : Working on the screen PCB of Vano. I'm agree with him.
look at your PM tomorrow and share it if you think it's good for the project here, i'm not jealous about my poor knowledge... more shamed by it...
Let's go on now... as all the fears where shaked once more time !
Yes Nazar is a clever designer. Shorts exchanges with John from ECdesign about the TDA thread (did you read it ? It's like Proust, you have to come back many times on it as it's very long ! but here the conductor and the musicians are the same : John, we are not going to do the same ousrselves: "just good enough" is not "SOTA")
look at your PM tomorrow and share it if you think it's good for the project here, i'm not jealous about my poor knowledge... more shamed by it...
Let's go on now... as all the fears where shaked once more time !
Yes Nazar is a clever designer. Shorts exchanges with John from ECdesign about the TDA thread (did you read it ? It's like Proust, you have to come back many times on it as it's very long ! but here the conductor and the musicians are the same : John, we are not going to do the same ousrselves: "just good enough" is not "SOTA")
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Indeed, though some may not realize it.
It was my impression that the last burst of enthusiasm was towards others doing it. That is, various people will throw in ideas, an (imaginary) 'project manager' will choose what ideas to implement, an anonymous volunteer will design a PCB, an anonymous group will do a group buy of the PCB's and possibly also the other components - and Walla! - very soon we will have decent sounding DAC on the cheap. So far, other than some people throwing in ideas, I see no 'project manager', no finalized schematic, no designer to design a PCB according to the schematic and no group to do group buy.
This was my impression, yet, I may have the wrong impression.
If there is a single person who may want to do by oneself all the above steps, I'd encourage that person, by all means (along sharing my experience about what it may take for the project to be successful).
Yes, it is very clear.
I have the impression that some people here are misinterpreting my intentions and motives.
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