hi Juhazi, the very best in the coming year,
thanks for the measurements
how much did you + EQ the Neo 8 pdr in the low end for the 12" transition ?
Did you need to EQ too the 12 " Beyma too as you doe not use the "round dashed bafle (= cardioid resistiv circular U-frame?) of the commercial Gradiant speaker ?
In the opposite band of Neo8 PDR: 4000 hz is the very uper limit according to you or is it possible to go above with peaks EQ ?
thanks for the measurements
how much did you + EQ the Neo 8 pdr in the low end for the 12" transition ?
Did you need to EQ too the 12 " Beyma too as you doe not use the "round dashed bafle (= cardioid resistiv circular U-frame?) of the commercial Gradiant speaker ?
In the opposite band of Neo8 PDR: 4000 hz is the very uper limit according to you or is it possible to go above with peaks EQ ?
Hi,
12" needs lots of eq but neo8 is easy. 12" dipole null is fortunately above Neo8's rising distortion and dipole loss range, xo around 800Hz LR4 handles both problems!
Neo8 gets difficult in many ways above 5kHz, I avoid that too by crossing around 4.5kHz. Actually this is a bit too high when we think about c-c spacing, but that is just one factor when we think of xo.
Neo8 800-4,5kHz sings beautifully! I can't hear anything strange at transistion from 12" to NEo8. Acoustic centre offset is giving some harm to off-axis and specially backwards, but that is not really a problem - just a beaty mark for us measurement-addicts!
12" needs lots of eq but neo8 is easy. 12" dipole null is fortunately above Neo8's rising distortion and dipole loss range, xo around 800Hz LR4 handles both problems!
Neo8 gets difficult in many ways above 5kHz, I avoid that too by crossing around 4.5kHz. Actually this is a bit too high when we think about c-c spacing, but that is just one factor when we think of xo.
Neo8 800-4,5kHz sings beautifully! I can't hear anything strange at transistion from 12" to NEo8. Acoustic centre offset is giving some harm to off-axis and specially backwards, but that is not really a problem - just a beaty mark for us measurement-addicts!
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Thanks,
You understand that I'm looking for a driver to do like the old school : one driver for the 1800 max to 7000 hz mini with no CD or horn but with a planar. RD75 is too expensive, WAF off, and have maybe manufactering quality problems...
4500 is theorically a little short because in the targett of the dangerous Fletcher- Munson. But you are right : have to listen first, measure after... then set up.
You understand that I'm looking for a driver to do like the old school : one driver for the 1800 max to 7000 hz mini with no CD or horn but with a planar. RD75 is too expensive, WAF off, and have maybe manufactering quality problems...
4500 is theorically a little short because in the targett of the dangerous Fletcher- Munson. But you are right : have to listen first, measure after... then set up.
After a critical listening session with a audiophile friend, some fine tuning to response was done. Before listening I changed highest xo to 3,5kHz LR4 acoustic, to smooth power response and room RTA response.
The lowest xo between monopole bass and dipole woofer needs work still. It is very difficult to set indoors because of room modes and reflections. Different radiation patterns make this even more challenging.
Here are nearfield directivity and listening placement farfield measurements (with room eq at 133Hz). The backside tweeter is parallel with reverse polarity.
The lowest xo between monopole bass and dipole woofer needs work still. It is very difficult to set indoors because of room modes and reflections. Different radiation patterns make this even more challenging.
Here are nearfield directivity and listening placement farfield measurements (with room eq at 133Hz). The backside tweeter is parallel with reverse polarity.
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As it is easy with active and for curiosity : may you try to make a very narrow notch at 4 k hz : - 2 or 4 DB and say to me how it was ? (I know it's very near the XO....) ?
Yes, it's easy with global (input) eq. Select F, dB, Q. But sorry, I don't have words to tell how it sounds except perhaps a bit softer with piano's highs...
I will leave this 4kHz hotness because I have hearing problems with high frequencies! My friend didn't notice anything special. The best cure is to attenuate back tweeter 6dB. I tried to do that with felt, no success. A potentiometer would be nice, I don't have resistors with suitable value...
How easily it is heard depends on the listener and one gets used to it fast. Eq does not affect polar response or decay response. If I was sensing hissing of s's or somethng like that I would try to do something that reduces power response of decay - in AINO's case I would perhaps shift xo to 4kHz.
I will leave this 4kHz hotness because I have hearing problems with high frequencies! My friend didn't notice anything special. The best cure is to attenuate back tweeter 6dB. I tried to do that with felt, no success. A potentiometer would be nice, I don't have resistors with suitable value...
How easily it is heard depends on the listener and one gets used to it fast. Eq does not affect polar response or decay response. If I was sensing hissing of s's or somethng like that I would try to do something that reduces power response of decay - in AINO's case I would perhaps shift xo to 4kHz.
thanks juhazi for you try and review about my 4 k hz notch question.
In fact, I have been talking about it because it is my last passive setup with my main speakers and it gave outstanding results in my case: Boston Lynfield 400L. I have to write a review of it after measurements if some few has these speakers (I report in a thread here about these speakers : "acoustical filter for tweeter").
I am always suspiscious with piano for testing highs because they are naturally harsch, bright, metalic and depends too of the recording (distance of the mic when reccording) ... but ALWAYS use piano session because its widthness in frequency range.
In fact, I have been talking about it because it is my last passive setup with my main speakers and it gave outstanding results in my case: Boston Lynfield 400L. I have to write a review of it after measurements if some few has these speakers (I report in a thread here about these speakers : "acoustical filter for tweeter").
I am always suspiscious with piano for testing highs because they are naturally harsch, bright, metalic and depends too of the recording (distance of the mic when reccording) ... but ALWAYS use piano session because its widthness in frequency range.
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Damn, I just found out that my left channel has excess distortion at high-mid driver and perhaps with tweeter too. This can be seen already in June right after I started using diy ICEpower amplifiers! First I will check inside amplifier box - loose connections, faulty soldering? I can also change the whole ASX50 module. I have disconnected wires many times, so the problem must be inside icepower box or minidsp box!
I always measure my left speaker, this was the first time I looked at distortion in the right channel!
NeoB v33 has attenuated back tweetr and now it measures well. The sound has not really changed much according to my aged ears!
This is the list of recordings that my friend auditioned. All cds were played with Yamaha CDX-593 analog out -Yamaha RXV-530 6ch input/analog out - minidsp - icepower - Ainogradient. Interconnects and power cables standard hardware store quality (rca shielded).
- Berlioz: Symhonie fantastique, op. 14. / Utah Symphony / (Reference Recordings RR-11)
- Ports of Call / Eiji Oeu & Minnesota Orchestra (Reference Recordings RR-80CD)
- Respighi / Eiji Oue & Minnesota Orchestra (Reference Recordings RR-95CD)
- Pomp & Pipes! Dallas Wind Symphony, Paul Riedo/organ. (Reference Recordings RR-58CD)
- McCoy Tyner with Stanley Clarke and Al Foster (Telarc CD-83488)
- Big Band Basie / Clark Terry, Frank Wess, Bob Lark, DePaul University Jazz Ensemble 1 (Reference Recordings RR-63CD)
- Katriina Honkanen: Hiljainen talo (DIGCD 50)
- Mari Boine: Goaskinviellja/Eagle Brother (521388-2)
- Wynton Marsalis & Eric Clapton play the blues. Live from jazz at Lincoln center
- Albert Järvinen: Braindamage – Or Still Alive
- Hugh Masekela: hope
- Eric Clapton: Sessions for Robert J
- Pink Floyd: Pulse
- Metallica: The Black Album
I always measure my left speaker, this was the first time I looked at distortion in the right channel!
NeoB v33 has attenuated back tweetr and now it measures well. The sound has not really changed much according to my aged ears!
This is the list of recordings that my friend auditioned. All cds were played with Yamaha CDX-593 analog out -Yamaha RXV-530 6ch input/analog out - minidsp - icepower - Ainogradient. Interconnects and power cables standard hardware store quality (rca shielded).
- Berlioz: Symhonie fantastique, op. 14. / Utah Symphony / (Reference Recordings RR-11)
- Ports of Call / Eiji Oeu & Minnesota Orchestra (Reference Recordings RR-80CD)
- Respighi / Eiji Oue & Minnesota Orchestra (Reference Recordings RR-95CD)
- Pomp & Pipes! Dallas Wind Symphony, Paul Riedo/organ. (Reference Recordings RR-58CD)
- McCoy Tyner with Stanley Clarke and Al Foster (Telarc CD-83488)
- Big Band Basie / Clark Terry, Frank Wess, Bob Lark, DePaul University Jazz Ensemble 1 (Reference Recordings RR-63CD)
- Katriina Honkanen: Hiljainen talo (DIGCD 50)
- Mari Boine: Goaskinviellja/Eagle Brother (521388-2)
- Wynton Marsalis & Eric Clapton play the blues. Live from jazz at Lincoln center
- Albert Järvinen: Braindamage – Or Still Alive
- Hugh Masekela: hope
- Eric Clapton: Sessions for Robert J
- Pink Floyd: Pulse
- Metallica: The Black Album
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Right channel distortion issue fixed!
Yes, the right, after numerous cabling changes etc. I found it! I had soldered the speaker ground leads crossed inside my right channel diy-amplifier! Upper mid's - went to tweeter's - and vice versa. I use speakon connectors and they are well marked - a stupid mistake. Fortunately the smoke that runs the amp did not leak!
Nothing wrong with Minidsp 4x10HD!
"Sometimes I am amazed how smart I am"
Yes, the right, after numerous cabling changes etc. I found it! I had soldered the speaker ground leads crossed inside my right channel diy-amplifier! Upper mid's - went to tweeter's - and vice versa. I use speakon connectors and they are well marked - a stupid mistake. Fortunately the smoke that runs the amp did not leak!
Nothing wrong with Minidsp 4x10HD!
"Sometimes I am amazed how smart I am"
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Nor up in smoke tweeter!
Very good
You mean like; One bad a** mofo gettin it done right? 😛
Hello there Juhazi, I got to wondering one thing when I looked at some of my measurements again... you don't happen to have full range 0-90 measurements of the OB bass driver as it is in the pictures which if I see correctly is basically naked without a baffle? 0-180 would be even better =)
I looked at my own with the 6.5" mid driver but when run naked there is no visible dipole null at all, or any ragged peaks off axis. I'll have to test if the result is the same on my 10" driver and it would be interesting to hear if you find the same in your measurements also.
I theorized that if this is something general and not just with my midrange then it is possible that any cone driver ( with small enough basket edges ) can be run rull range in a dipole without getting a noticable dipole peak. This because the directivity of the cone will loose directivity before the dipole peak occours, epsecially on the rear.
I looked at my own with the 6.5" mid driver but when run naked there is no visible dipole null at all, or any ragged peaks off axis. I'll have to test if the result is the same on my 10" driver and it would be interesting to hear if you find the same in your measurements also.
I theorized that if this is something general and not just with my midrange then it is possible that any cone driver ( with small enough basket edges ) can be run rull range in a dipole without getting a noticable dipole peak. This because the directivity of the cone will loose directivity before the dipole peak occours, epsecially on the rear.
Here you are, nearfield and at 1m distance showing dipole response. No eq., measured indoors. Beyma 12MWNd no baffle but placed on top of a bass speaker cabinet and tilted 30¤
I have revised my presentation of AINOgradient for version NeoB. I show a 4-page summary here but if any of you want to get full 27 pages as pdf, please sen private message to me and tell your email, so I can send it as an attachment!
I have revised my presentation of AINOgradient for version NeoB. I show a 4-page summary here but if any of you want to get full 27 pages as pdf, please sen private message to me and tell your email, so I can send it as an attachment!
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Here some others, "raw" response of Beyma 12" as nude dipole and directivity with xo and eq
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I visited Alvar Aalto Museo again to get some ideas for the mid-tweeter pole of AINOgradient. The bass box got it's form from a glass by Ms. Aino Aalto. My original idea was to use legs of Alvar Aalto's chair as pole, but I had to abandon it to get dipole action working at high frequencies. No ideas came to my mind but here you can see some pics from the museum.
Aalto designed a motor boat because his summer cabin was on an island near Jyväskylä, Spoon bow made it possible for passengers to step to the rocks straight from the boat. The name of the boat is Nemo Propheta in Patria because Aalto was also critisized for some aspects of his typical designs here in Finland.
Aalto designed a motor boat because his summer cabin was on an island near Jyväskylä, Spoon bow made it possible for passengers to step to the rocks straight from the boat. The name of the boat is Nemo Propheta in Patria because Aalto was also critisized for some aspects of his typical designs here in Finland.
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A new way in life!
Today I have decided to abandon all the phooey and hyped stereo and mulitchannel audio systems and I will simply enjoy monophonic, single driver fullrange pure sound and music! The equipment is full analog and source is frequency-modulated signal.
I want all of you to join me and enjoy music at purest, go and buy yourselves
Tivoli Audio PAL
Today I have decided to abandon all the phooey and hyped stereo and mulitchannel audio systems and I will simply enjoy monophonic, single driver fullrange pure sound and music! The equipment is full analog and source is frequency-modulated signal.
I want all of you to join me and enjoy music at purest, go and buy yourselves
Tivoli Audio PAL
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Stay tuned :
I have ben painting my fridge in pink from this morning... This afternoon I put on the door a standalone Lowter PM6 in the Tivoli way....
For measure at O, 35, 90°... I just move the door !
I have ben painting my fridge in pink from this morning... This afternoon I put on the door a standalone Lowter PM6 in the Tivoli way....
For measure at O, 35, 90°... I just move the door !
Hello friends,
We Finns will celebrate Juhannus (Midsummer) this weekend by burning fires at midnight. I will also celebrate the first anniversary of AINOgradient speakers!
I wish You a warm and cheerful summer!
Greetings,
Juha (aka Juhazi)
ps.My name Juha comes from John, Giovanni. The first catholic priests in Finland (under Swedish regime) renamed the summer solstice event, which was held for the praise of pagan god Ukko (Old man) to St Johns day - Juhannus
Midsummer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We Finns will celebrate Juhannus (Midsummer) this weekend by burning fires at midnight. I will also celebrate the first anniversary of AINOgradient speakers!
I wish You a warm and cheerful summer!
Greetings,
Juha (aka Juhazi)
ps.My name Juha comes from John, Giovanni. The first catholic priests in Finland (under Swedish regime) renamed the summer solstice event, which was held for the praise of pagan god Ukko (Old man) to St Johns day - Juhannus
Midsummer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
