The weakness is not in the speaker, the weakness was in the advice to close the BR ports when using the speaker against the front wall. You don't decrease the level at -say- 100Hz and throw away all output at fc. If you use a speaker intended for free placement at an on-wall placement, you'll have to redesign it.
Now of course some room modes will be excited better near a boundary. But others won't and all you do is shift the intensity of the modes. So the outcome is rather arbitrary. Dealing effectively with modal behavior requires other measures. DSP is one of them, but not that effective.
Now of course some room modes will be excited better near a boundary. But others won't and all you do is shift the intensity of the modes. So the outcome is rather arbitrary. Dealing effectively with modal behavior requires other measures. DSP is one of them, but not that effective.
I hope thread starter can also find all this information usefull?
It all helps to build a level of knowledge and understanding. I always understood that the big emphasis of this forum is "design it yourself" more than just humble "do it yourself" and I'm grateful to those who take the trouble to explain things - I always was one for diving into the deep end ...
It all helps to build a level of knowledge and understanding. I always understood that the big emphasis of this forum is "design it yourself" more than just humble "do it yourself" and I'm grateful to those who take the trouble to explain things - I always was one for diving into the deep end ...
Again: There is no talk of an on-wall placement. Lupo has about 85cm of space between the front of the speaker and the wall. He says so in Post # 1.
It is no secret that closed loudspeakers work better in most rooms in the size category discussed here. Anyone who has experience with different concepts will be able to confirm this. There can be no question of "throw away all output at fs". Maybe you should test it yourself before you question anything.
We have now made more than 10 meetings with a wide variety of speakers, mostly over several days. Based on this experience, I myself also decided to use a closed loudspeaker because it simply plays more harmoniously in the bass.
By the way, reducing the intensity of the modes is a very big step in the right direction. I am mainly concerned with the three main modes in a cuboid room, because they have a massive influence on the sound result.
The consequence for Lupo, Jesper and all other music listeners from your posts is that they should not build a design if it is not optimized for its room position. On the other hand, you recommended Tony's calpamos - without any corrections ...
Quote:
"Again: There is no talk of an on-wall placement. Lupo has about 85cm of space between the front of the speaker and the wall. He says so in Post # 1.
It is no secret that closed loudspeakers work better in most rooms in the size category discussed here....
The consequence for Lupo, Jesper and all other music listeners from your posts is that they should not build a design if it is not optimized for its room position. On the other hand, you recommended Tony's calpamos - without any corrections ..."
Yes, occasionally, I've received the impression (albeit the good intentions of all) that unless i treat my living room as a studio, or move most/all speakers out further than I am able to, I might as well give up!
I Haven't surrendered yet.
Currently, I am corresponding with Rick Craig of 'Selah Audio' N.C. USA. After a preliminary enquiry about purchasing just the crossovers for one of his tried and proven off the shelf designs, I provided him with notes on my current equipment, listening room with picture, and my rather exacting, listening and design requirements. He got back and without making any ref. to the off the shelf designs shortlisted, asked me if I have access to 'Purifi' and 'Bliesma' drivers. I guess he is looking at a new- ish design. My knowledge of these drivers suggests that he has taken on board the information I provided. His 'Purezza' two way bookshelf uses a BZ tweeter, Purifi mid and a passive Purifi woofer - no port with this design. When I read the review of the 'Purezza', it became apparent that Rick can tailor the crossover for this design (BSC) according to how near or far speakers are going to be from the wall behind them ...
"Again: There is no talk of an on-wall placement. Lupo has about 85cm of space between the front of the speaker and the wall. He says so in Post # 1.
It is no secret that closed loudspeakers work better in most rooms in the size category discussed here....
The consequence for Lupo, Jesper and all other music listeners from your posts is that they should not build a design if it is not optimized for its room position. On the other hand, you recommended Tony's calpamos - without any corrections ..."
Yes, occasionally, I've received the impression (albeit the good intentions of all) that unless i treat my living room as a studio, or move most/all speakers out further than I am able to, I might as well give up!
I Haven't surrendered yet.
Currently, I am corresponding with Rick Craig of 'Selah Audio' N.C. USA. After a preliminary enquiry about purchasing just the crossovers for one of his tried and proven off the shelf designs, I provided him with notes on my current equipment, listening room with picture, and my rather exacting, listening and design requirements. He got back and without making any ref. to the off the shelf designs shortlisted, asked me if I have access to 'Purifi' and 'Bliesma' drivers. I guess he is looking at a new- ish design. My knowledge of these drivers suggests that he has taken on board the information I provided. His 'Purezza' two way bookshelf uses a BZ tweeter, Purifi mid and a passive Purifi woofer - no port with this design. When I read the review of the 'Purezza', it became apparent that Rick can tailor the crossover for this design (BSC) according to how near or far speakers are going to be from the wall behind them ...
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Some remarks:
- by closing the BR port you essentially create an oversized closed box with Q approximately 0.5. It lowers the output at fc by 6dB or more. It doesn't lower the output between 80-200Hz. In that region you still have to cope with serious modal behavior: you don't change a thing there. And while you decrease the level of certain modal resonances, you don't cure the pain. You are still listening to the room, not to the source. You might as well use an equalizer or turn the 'bass' dial on your amp down. Check this room mode calculator amongst others, you'll notice a lot is going on between 100 and 200Hz.
- The placement near a wall (source to wall about 0,5m) causes summing of the direct reflection from the rear wall with the original sound with max at about 90Hz. This summing sustains up to about 120Hz. The first cancelling will happen at 170Hz. Neither of these frequencies are addressed very well when stuffing the BR port. That is why I think the approach is quite blunt.
- You seem to imply I haven't tested such things. I have though, have given it a thought and have studied some acoustics.
I don't deny reducing the levels of modal resonances is a good thing. But you decrease the overall level of the deep bass, you don't change at thing from about 80Hz upwards. In a small room with max. dimensions of 4m and a low tuned box (<30Hz), stuffing the vent likely turns out to be counterproductive, because there are no standing waves at fc.
No standing wave at fc? We are talking about rooms with around 25m². If we follow your example and take one dimension with 4m, we have a standing wave at 43Hz (343Hz / 4m / 2). So that we get to the 25m², the other dimension is about 6m, here the standing wave is at 29Hz. Exactly the fc area! In addition, there is the standing wave of the room height at around 65Hz.
Of course there are also standing waves over the three main modes. However, these are not as pronounced and are also weakened by things like sofas etc. In addition, the higher the frequency, the more they overlap.
And now let's look at the simulation of the Mona Kea's woofer, one bass reflex and one closed in the same volume:
The standing wave at 29Hz is served with about 3dB less level, the standing wave at 43Hz with 4dB less and the one at 65Hz with 2dB less. This is a huge advantage in practice.
Closing the ports costs in this case less than 5dB, not 6dB or more. An influence can also be seen above 80Hz.
Again you are talking about 0.5m distance to the wall - but in Lupo's case it is 85cm, 70% more!
In theory, your objections are justified, but in practice the effects are different from what you claimed.
I've heard the Mona Kea very often, both as a bass reflex and as a closed one. On paper, the bass reflex version should have a clear advantage, but I would always prefer the closed one. And almost everyone who has heard and built it so far shares this opinion, including the designer.
Of course there are also standing waves over the three main modes. However, these are not as pronounced and are also weakened by things like sofas etc. In addition, the higher the frequency, the more they overlap.
And now let's look at the simulation of the Mona Kea's woofer, one bass reflex and one closed in the same volume:
The standing wave at 29Hz is served with about 3dB less level, the standing wave at 43Hz with 4dB less and the one at 65Hz with 2dB less. This is a huge advantage in practice.
Closing the ports costs in this case less than 5dB, not 6dB or more. An influence can also be seen above 80Hz.
Again you are talking about 0.5m distance to the wall - but in Lupo's case it is 85cm, 70% more!
In theory, your objections are justified, but in practice the effects are different from what you claimed.
I've heard the Mona Kea very often, both as a bass reflex and as a closed one. On paper, the bass reflex version should have a clear advantage, but I would always prefer the closed one. And almost everyone who has heard and built it so far shares this opinion, including the designer.
Attachments
We slowly come to an agreement such a big 4-way has no reason to exist in a room of 6x4m 
. Although the Mona Kea isn’t even that big. And I don’t know the max SPL the system is capable of. But who plays above 110dB in domestic circumstances?
My bottom line is that in our living rooms classic big speakers aren’t the best solution. Bulky but no solution for agreeable low frequency reproduction. Even my last 3-way design about 10 years ago, with about two third the size of the Mona Kea, delivered more bass than I needed, in a room about double the size. Positioned well away from walls it performed fine, but no more than that (low frequency range). Couldn’t stand the sound in positions near the front wall. Stuffed BR or not. And mind you, that had nothing to do with the design or the execution. But everything with the room. Modal behavior pretty much ruins it.
. Although the Mona Kea isn’t even that big. And I don’t know the max SPL the system is capable of. But who plays above 110dB in domestic circumstances? My bottom line is that in our living rooms classic big speakers aren’t the best solution. Bulky but no solution for agreeable low frequency reproduction. Even my last 3-way design about 10 years ago, with about two third the size of the Mona Kea, delivered more bass than I needed, in a room about double the size. Positioned well away from walls it performed fine, but no more than that (low frequency range). Couldn’t stand the sound in positions near the front wall. Stuffed BR or not. And mind you, that had nothing to do with the design or the execution. But everything with the room. Modal behavior pretty much ruins it.
We slowly come to an agreement such a big 4-way has no reason to exist in a room of 6x4m
No, I see it very differently. Modern drivers go similarly deep with significantly smaller dimensions. There are hardly any differences. Take a look at Troels' Illumina-66 for example - tuning frequency 36Hz. However, a large woofer simply creates a much more confident bass and does not necessarily require bass reflex support.
Here 4-ways were chosen to get a good response off axis without using a waveguide or horn. A waveguide or horn causes a loss in the high frequency off axis. This is exactly what should be avoided with the Mona Kea and as you can see from the measurements, this has been achieved.
And I honestly don't think your 3-way with stuffed BR played just as badly in the bass as it did with open ports.
I Have had the chance to listen to quite a few speakers by Troels and two by DonHighend. They are different in that Troels is more classical high fidelity audiophile that focuses on things sounding authentic, e.g. Oboe sound like an Oboe, and long term easy listening and recently going towards dynamics and driver integration. DonHighend, if I remember correctly two three ways, it was a few years back one in Bavaria the other in Karlsruhe, also sounded good and more geared towards measuring well and for SS, 100W+, maybe initially more exciting. Donhighend was popular with fairly reasonably priced amps, good performance for the money, reminded me of Nubert speakers somehow, but if you like the air and refinment of highend speakers and passive crossovers then good caps and Troels are probably the way to go IMO.
However you seem to have the SS power (90W) and preamp where the DonHighend may be the way to go for you, looks like a good design 4 way at 4ohm and 89db/2.83V. maybe ask Rese what he recommends as a good combo of caps and coils to have the speaker sound natural, that would be the trick here I believe.
To OP The other day I heard a Troels Discovery 861 in Italy and I would seriously consider looking into that as a true bargain. The price with superb caps and drivers was under €1000, very easy build, done by a 21 year old with a simple circular saw, a drill and a tape measure. Also 92db/2.83V and great dynamics especially for the size, they were placed suboptimally "in esthetic line" with a TV and furniture maybe 60cm from the wall sounded very fine, being run by a 50W PP tube amp. They seem to have some "tolerance" to be placed where they look good by his GF instead of where they sound good I prefer more bass, but for a 6+8 they had very good bass and used the room for gain. The 861s made his dad's setup ready for the "upgrade", now the kid just needs some better ampflification. Maybe ask Troels if you can use a Berylium Tweeter option here as a further upgade possibility. But it just works, a bit similar to the Vandersteen speakersin feel.
The DTQWT, which I liked a lot with good tubes, is an option in almost any room, but its strengths are kind of wasted here and I would opt for a 861.
Personally I would like to hear the opinions of someone building a Mona Kea and Alex should get a shout out and more publicity, Troels has (IMO for good reason) enough reputation and clients, and Alex could need some internationalization
As a disclaimer I am a fan of good ampflification, caps: Telflon, Copper Foil or PIO with NOS tubes (also partial to Pass Labs) and a lot of driver membrane surface in HE speakers, preferably with horns, but that is me. It really depends what gives you joy. That you should try to find out and pick accordingly, which I know is tricky during the pandemic. What other (commercial) speakers have you liked
Hope this helps.
W
However you seem to have the SS power (90W) and preamp where the DonHighend may be the way to go for you, looks like a good design 4 way at 4ohm and 89db/2.83V. maybe ask Rese what he recommends as a good combo of caps and coils to have the speaker sound natural, that would be the trick here I believe.
To OP The other day I heard a Troels Discovery 861 in Italy and I would seriously consider looking into that as a true bargain. The price with superb caps and drivers was under €1000, very easy build, done by a 21 year old with a simple circular saw, a drill and a tape measure. Also 92db/2.83V and great dynamics especially for the size, they were placed suboptimally "in esthetic line" with a TV and furniture maybe 60cm from the wall sounded very fine, being run by a 50W PP tube amp. They seem to have some "tolerance" to be placed where they look good by his GF instead of where they sound good
I prefer more bass, but for a 6+8 they had very good bass and used the room for gain. The 861s made his dad's setup ready for the "upgrade", now the kid just needs some better ampflification. Maybe ask Troels if you can use a Berylium Tweeter option here as a further upgade possibility. But it just works, a bit similar to the Vandersteen speakersin feel.The DTQWT, which I liked a lot with good tubes, is an option in almost any room, but its strengths are kind of wasted here and I would opt for a 861.
Personally I would like to hear the opinions of someone building a Mona Kea and Alex should get a shout out and more publicity, Troels has (IMO for good reason) enough reputation and clients, and Alex could need some internationalization
As a disclaimer I am a fan of good ampflification, caps: Telflon, Copper Foil or PIO with NOS tubes (also partial to Pass Labs
) and a lot of driver membrane surface in HE speakers, preferably with horns, but that is me. It really depends what gives you joy. That you should try to find out and pick accordingly, which I know is tricky during the pandemic. What other (commercial) speakers have you likedHope this helps.
W
Tubeglow, Thanks for a very interesting and extremely helpful summary of your listening impressions and evaluation of the designs of Troels and Donhighend. You are the first person I've come across who has actually heard the 861's, and in a room position similar to my own speakers. That should be of real interest to Dabenza on this thread and remains interesting to me - good to know there's a pair somewhere in Italy!
Troels has been my first port of call for some time now, but, inevitably, I have struggled to get consistent advice on his designs and of course he is not a consultancy. Selah Audio have always interested me and that's where I've finally turned to. Rick Craig is, I suppose, mainly a custom/ bespoke speaker designer. There are some pretty spectacular designs in his gallery/archives, but he has a little stable of off the shelf Kits, several of which deploy double woofers for LF duties and thus remain rather domestically friendly in their footprint.
I sent him a shortlist, room details/picture, amplification listening taste etc and was expecting a quote for crossovers and drawings for one of his off the shelf 2 x 7"/8" woofer designs. Instead he's proposing a design based on the Purifi mid/bass drivers, probably a couple of passive radiators and the Bliesma beryllium 25mm tweeters. He referenced a couple of other designs, but suggested that what he's got in mind will interface more effectively with my room and amp. I have made it plain that I'm not going to be adding subs, but Rick seems very confident that the little Purifis, which look set to offer a caveat to the oft repeated claim that size matters, manage very well without.
It's back to my roots in a way. My ancient, Epos es 22's, with their 6" drivers, have next to no crossover and shouldn't really work as well as they do. However, it's all about the design of the drivers.
I've read some enthusiastic comments on this site about the Purifi's and they, together with the Bliesmas, get a glowing review on Hi Fi compass. So, fingers crossed. I agree that Donhighend and others like him deserve a bit more international exposure and der akustische-untergrund.de is well worth a visit.
Troels has been my first port of call for some time now, but, inevitably, I have struggled to get consistent advice on his designs and of course he is not a consultancy. Selah Audio have always interested me and that's where I've finally turned to. Rick Craig is, I suppose, mainly a custom/ bespoke speaker designer. There are some pretty spectacular designs in his gallery/archives, but he has a little stable of off the shelf Kits, several of which deploy double woofers for LF duties and thus remain rather domestically friendly in their footprint.
I sent him a shortlist, room details/picture, amplification listening taste etc and was expecting a quote for crossovers and drawings for one of his off the shelf 2 x 7"/8" woofer designs. Instead he's proposing a design based on the Purifi mid/bass drivers, probably a couple of passive radiators and the Bliesma beryllium 25mm tweeters. He referenced a couple of other designs, but suggested that what he's got in mind will interface more effectively with my room and amp. I have made it plain that I'm not going to be adding subs, but Rick seems very confident that the little Purifis, which look set to offer a caveat to the oft repeated claim that size matters, manage very well without.
It's back to my roots in a way. My ancient, Epos es 22's, with their 6" drivers, have next to no crossover and shouldn't really work as well as they do. However, it's all about the design of the drivers.
I've read some enthusiastic comments on this site about the Purifi's and they, together with the Bliesmas, get a glowing review on Hi Fi compass. So, fingers crossed. I agree that Donhighend and others like him deserve a bit more international exposure and der akustische-untergrund.de is well worth a visit.
I forgot to mention that living half way up a mountain and rebuilding a ruin means I haven't heard any speakers other than my own, for more years than I care to remember. The Pass labs designs are seriously interesting and receive passing praise from Les Wolstheholme who built my S100 amp. I'm about to replace the transistor modules to covert the amp to something with a higher bias that gets a tiny bit warm, but not enough to warm the house. It can get cold in Umbria in the winter!
Stuffing the BR didn't cure the 'colored' bass-mid (low male voices, piano down to A and somewhat lower). Getting it out from the wall did. Port output on that system was down 18dB at 100Hz. The port only excites room modes up to 50Hz more than the driver does itself. Go figure, even in a design with Fp at 40Hz port output is down some 15dB at 100Hz. So what essentially happens when you shut the port?
@TS I'm kinda sorry for my sidestep, it's only that I can't stand it that sub-optimal solutions are presented as some kind of Valhalla. You don't cure modal behavior of your room by lowering the source level. The only result is you'll hear the bass notes in between the resonances even less.
If you still don't want to understand it even after explaining it several times, I don't care.
This is not a suboptimal solution, it is a very practical opportunity.
Again and again you ignore the fact that your arguments speak against EVERY loudspeaker and you thus designate all closed loudspeakers as unusable. Then probably all designers are wrong and you are smarter. Or just hear better ...
@tubeglow49:
Can you remember which speakers it was from donhighend?
We don't believe in overpriced caps and other voodoo. Good foil caps cost very little money today and are of such good quality that no one in the blind test has ever heard a difference to the expensive high-end parts. I know that Troels, Tony and other designers propagate huge differences here, and I'm sure, their suppliers are happy about that, but none of them really blindly compared the components.
And as a very clever person once said: "If you see what is currently connected, I am not interested in your opinion".
The only really useful point is to select the components in order to achieve the lowest possible tolerances.
Of course everyone can put as much money into x-over parts as he want and if that makes him feel good, everything is fine. We just think that this money is better spent elsewhere.
This is not a suboptimal solution, it is a very practical opportunity.
Again and again you ignore the fact that your arguments speak against EVERY loudspeaker and you thus designate all closed loudspeakers as unusable. Then probably all designers are wrong and you are smarter. Or just hear better ...
@tubeglow49:
Can you remember which speakers it was from donhighend?
We don't believe in overpriced caps and other voodoo. Good foil caps cost very little money today and are of such good quality that no one in the blind test has ever heard a difference to the expensive high-end parts. I know that Troels, Tony and other designers propagate huge differences here, and I'm sure, their suppliers are happy about that, but none of them really blindly compared the components.
And as a very clever person once said: "If you see what is currently connected, I am not interested in your opinion".
The only really useful point is to select the components in order to achieve the lowest possible tolerances.
Of course everyone can put as much money into x-over parts as he want and if that makes him feel good, everything is fine. We just think that this money is better spent elsewhere.
@Rese It all depends what makes you happy and that can be a bluetooth dsp soundbar or a Western Electric Silbatone Horn system. Definitely better for the wallet to be happy with less, but lets not get too philosophical here.
I have had very few people, e.g. clients, girlfriends, friends and sceptical family members pick foil caps in crossovers and component rebuilds over carefully sourced, sonically and functionally matched super caps (YMMV and also depends on quality, type and build of the equipement, obviously.) They don't all have to be expensive, e.g. there are some very good relatively cheap Russian PIO out there, charcroft resistors or in some applications the Duelund tinned copper in oil wires.
But I can show you or anyone else very easily my 834 phono stage clone with swapable caps and you or even my engineer father who hates voodoo clearly can hear the difference between good foil caps and Milliflex Coppers, Vcaps, Mundorf SSGO or some Russian PIOs. And this is a Tim de Paravicini design who was IMO Mr. anti excessively expensive components and everything is good design and good measuring components. Now adding good components to superb design that can be very interesting or completely pointless...(been there too)
Now if you personally prefer PIOs, Teflons or Copper Foils in a particular application is where things get tricky and tastes vary.
Anyway what makes you happy cannot be argued, if you prefer one sound that is that. I've had to deal with clients that had really strange tastes, especially Russians and Americans with bass and not hearing distortions or people who prefer compressed MP3 files over high res or tape... the goal is making people happy and understanding what that entails. Usually keeping your mouth shut and knowing the right specialists to call
For me there can be some special magic in the imperfection or harmonics and "voodoo" properly implented and going ridiculous steps. But fixing mains issues, balancing your whole chain and room to sound correct are IMO are usuallyway more cost effective than some super expensive parts vs. good parts, but when you get into the top eschelon right around audiophilia nervosa and you just need to get that last little bit out of your system parts and materials play a big role. Unfortunately there is also a usual inverse relationship between money spent and happiness at that point. And one of the many reasons I don't do audio installations professionally anymore...
You went to the High End in Munich and although far from perfect there you can see useless voodoo, features or looks to inflate prices, next to really odd or incomprehensible selections that really add something, e.g Living Voice. IMO music productions in the top eschelons is definitely a mix of art and science with attempts at less compromise and to make money add some form of psychology
Oh regarding the two DonHighend speakers, the one speaker was almost certainly a Crazy implementation, which for the price (something ridiculously cheap) was very good, but showed weakness when played with some better electronics and the other one was probably (looking at the website) the Countach, with an ATM tweeter, which was in a much more high end league, but I did not bring electronics, was informal chance listening on SS gear.
Cheers W
I have had very few people, e.g. clients, girlfriends, friends and sceptical family members pick foil caps in crossovers and component rebuilds over carefully sourced, sonically and functionally matched super caps (YMMV and also depends on quality, type and build of the equipement, obviously.) They don't all have to be expensive, e.g. there are some very good relatively cheap Russian PIO out there, charcroft resistors or in some applications the Duelund tinned copper in oil wires.
But I can show you or anyone else very easily my 834 phono stage clone with swapable caps and you or even my engineer father who hates voodoo clearly can hear the difference between good foil caps and Milliflex Coppers, Vcaps, Mundorf SSGO or some Russian PIOs. And this is a Tim de Paravicini design who was IMO Mr. anti excessively expensive components and everything is good design and good measuring components. Now adding good components to superb design that can be very interesting or completely pointless...(been there too)
Now if you personally prefer PIOs, Teflons or Copper Foils in a particular application is where things get tricky and tastes vary.
Anyway what makes you happy cannot be argued, if you prefer one sound that is that. I've had to deal with clients that had really strange tastes, especially Russians and Americans with bass and not hearing distortions or people who prefer compressed MP3 files over high res or tape... the goal is making people happy and understanding what that entails. Usually keeping your mouth shut and knowing the right specialists to call
For me there can be some special magic in the imperfection or harmonics and "voodoo" properly implented and going ridiculous steps. But fixing mains issues, balancing your whole chain and room to sound correct are IMO are usuallyway more cost effective than some super expensive parts vs. good parts, but when you get into the top eschelon right around audiophilia nervosa and you just need to get that last little bit out of your system parts and materials play a big role. Unfortunately there is also a usual inverse relationship between money spent and happiness at that point.
And one of the many reasons I don't do audio installations professionally anymore... You went to the High End in Munich and although far from perfect there you can see useless voodoo, features or looks to inflate prices, next to really odd or incomprehensible selections that really add something, e.g Living Voice. IMO music productions in the top eschelons is definitely a mix of art and science with attempts at less compromise and to make money add some form of psychology
Oh regarding the two DonHighend speakers, the one speaker was almost certainly a Crazy implementation, which for the price (something ridiculously cheap) was very good, but showed weakness when played with some better electronics and the other one was probably (looking at the website) the Countach, with an ATM tweeter, which was in a much more high end league, but I did not bring electronics, was informal chance listening on SS gear.
Cheers W
@lupo1
When your red zone opens in Umbria I would strongly suggest getting out and going to listen to some different types of speakers, horns, big membrane speakers, high efficiency, 1st order, electrostatics, etc. Subito or used Audiocostruzioni
Selah I am not familiar with at all, sorry. Got into Troels after hearing some of his speakers many years back and noticing similarities of taste for equipment, feedback, e.g. to the High End in Munich etc and long term listening. He IMO especially now with his high efficiency large membrane horn speakers and first order designs is where for ME "it's at" (dynamics, impact, integration and speakers disappearing and connecting with music and not technology) and am very happy he went there. In my experience his newer designs are getting better but he has been burned by people trying to replicate and trusting more in experience and ears than just measurement. Just heard his most recent attempt of a technically perfect speaker worked superbly technically and measured phenomenally but got shelved for not being convincing as a musical experience. Good he has extra pandemic business that was not an inexpensive experiment...
Regarding the Saleh speaker
The Bliesma is a top tweeter and the purifi seems to be a good option for high power SS and dsp correction in a lot of speaker for the size. So in that situation could see such a speaker being good if you want to keep it around 6/7". Super high WAF likely. I am biased I am not a fan of digital correction of sound in mids and highs, so know what YOU like.
Just make sure to listen to some high and low efficiency speakers. Also if you can find them once the lockdown is over some first order speakers maybe Thiel or Vandersteen, difficult in Italy I know.
IF I remember correctly the Epos 22, I think it was Epos 25s I heard, bigger brother???/memory lapse??? Was a very popular speaker for surround sound in home cinemas but also decent music speaker. Excellent value, good build quality and bass for size but I remember them because they had super minimalist crossover design, like just some caps, coilds and resistors soldered to wire. Probably not 1st order but very few parts, but I remember that they prided themselves on as little crossover as possible. (Which is a philosophy that my experience often confirms less (but better) is usually more) and point to point wiring.
So just to be sure see if that type of crossover is what you liked about the Epos, less crossover often results in better dynamics. Listen to some other similar sub €1500 speakers.The Purifi has a low efficiency but probably not much worse than the Epos. ca. 88db/2.83V???
The Epos were engaging speakers and some issue with a lot of the modern drivers school e.g. purifi are IMO that they are small membrane, low distortion and f3 but somewhat less engaging and usually use electronic or high order crossovers, but loose soemthing in complexity. This might then not be what you want, or it's exactly the right thing if you like playing around with dsp or have a terrible room. 25sqm and semi tolerant wife does not sound bad IMO. But the Saleh purifies will likely give you the best placement options with dsp.
All three options could work, conjecturing these could be some points/options, but you need to really fiqure what you want:
-Saleh Purifi, good for size and correction, high clarity low distortion, probably leaning towards a more modern sound, make sure they are not tuned to cold or clinical in a SS system. Will likely go quite low and superb Be highs.Price likely not cheap.
-Troels Discovery 861, if you like natural first order speaker, not there high fidelity similar to vandersteen no baffle 1st order with better dynamics and efficiency ca. 91db (I believe) and good bass (obviously not a 15" bass)
Price super low with excellent caps if you care about that. This may be an option.
-The Mona Kea is probably the best in terms of bass and membrane area. Quite good ATM ribbon with generally excellent highs. Not sure on the mids don'T remember them being bad or wonderful, but overall good clarity and cohesion on the 3 way I heard. Probably similar to Mona. TheMona is a fourway and if implemented correctly has benefits with the 4" driver??? to bridge highs and mids and IMO bigger is most often better 12"+ even if its not subwoofer just does something for films and impact. Price no idea but Donhighend is usually focused on being reasonably inexpensive and great value. I concur with Rese that a closed box will likely give you a better bass response closer to wall and punchiness than BR. 12" could also be less problematic closer to wall than 6" but no garantees. It's the most of everything speaker and likely good fit for SS. Ask wife if it's OK though
My only suggestion is really try to listen to more options. Speakers are not just a function to convert electricity to motion but to move you Good luck!
Cheers W
When your red zone opens in Umbria I would strongly suggest getting out and going to listen to some different types of speakers, horns, big membrane speakers, high efficiency, 1st order, electrostatics, etc. Subito or used Audiocostruzioni
Selah I am not familiar with at all, sorry. Got into Troels after hearing some of his speakers many years back and noticing similarities of taste for equipment, feedback, e.g. to the High End in Munich etc and long term listening. He IMO especially now with his high efficiency large membrane horn speakers and first order designs is where for ME "it's at" (dynamics, impact, integration and speakers disappearing and connecting with music and not technology) and am very happy he went there. In my experience his newer designs are getting better but he has been burned by people trying to replicate and trusting more in experience and ears than just measurement. Just heard his most recent attempt of a technically perfect speaker worked superbly technically and measured phenomenally but got shelved for not being convincing as a musical experience. Good he has extra pandemic business that was not an inexpensive experiment...
Regarding the Saleh speaker
The Bliesma is a top tweeter and the purifi seems to be a good option for high power SS and dsp correction in a lot of speaker for the size. So in that situation could see such a speaker being good if you want to keep it around 6/7". Super high WAF likely. I am biased I am not a fan of digital correction of sound in mids and highs, so know what YOU like.
Just make sure to listen to some high and low efficiency speakers. Also if you can find them once the lockdown is over some first order speakers maybe Thiel or Vandersteen, difficult in Italy I know.
IF I remember correctly the Epos 22, I think it was Epos 25s I heard, bigger brother???/memory lapse??? Was a very popular speaker for surround sound in home cinemas but also decent music speaker. Excellent value, good build quality and bass for size but I remember them because they had super minimalist crossover design, like just some caps, coilds and resistors soldered to wire. Probably not 1st order but very few parts, but I remember that they prided themselves on as little crossover as possible. (Which is a philosophy that my experience often confirms less (but better) is usually more) and point to point wiring.
So just to be sure see if that type of crossover is what you liked about the Epos, less crossover often results in better dynamics. Listen to some other similar sub €1500 speakers.The Purifi has a low efficiency but probably not much worse than the Epos. ca. 88db/2.83V???
The Epos were engaging speakers and some issue with a lot of the modern drivers school e.g. purifi are IMO that they are small membrane, low distortion and f3 but somewhat less engaging and usually use electronic or high order crossovers, but loose soemthing in complexity. This might then not be what you want, or it's exactly the right thing if you like playing around with dsp or have a terrible room. 25sqm and semi tolerant wife does not sound bad IMO. But the Saleh purifies will likely give you the best placement options with dsp.
All three options could work, conjecturing these could be some points/options, but you need to really fiqure what you want:
-Saleh Purifi, good for size and correction, high clarity low distortion, probably leaning towards a more modern sound, make sure they are not tuned to cold or clinical in a SS system. Will likely go quite low and superb Be highs.Price likely not cheap.
-Troels Discovery 861, if you like natural first order speaker, not there high fidelity similar to vandersteen no baffle 1st order with better dynamics and efficiency ca. 91db (I believe) and good bass (obviously not a 15" bass
)Price super low with excellent caps if you care about that. This may be an option.
-The Mona Kea is probably the best in terms of bass and membrane area. Quite good ATM ribbon with generally excellent highs. Not sure on the mids don'T remember them being bad or wonderful, but overall good clarity and cohesion on the 3 way I heard. Probably similar to Mona. TheMona is a fourway and if implemented correctly has benefits with the 4" driver??? to bridge highs and mids and IMO bigger is most often better
12"+ even if its not subwoofer just does something for films and impact. Price no idea but Donhighend is usually focused on being reasonably inexpensive and great value. I concur with Rese that a closed box will likely give you a better bass response closer to wall and punchiness than BR. 12" could also be less problematic closer to wall than 6" but no garantees. It's the most of everything speaker and likely good fit for SS. Ask wife if it's OK though My only suggestion is really try to listen to more options. Speakers are not just a function to convert electricity to motion but to move you
Good luck!Cheers W
" ...Purifi, good for size and correction, high clarity low distortion, probably leaning towards a more modern sound, make sure they are not tuned to cold or clinical in a SS system. Will likely go quite low and superb Be highs.Price likely not cheap."
tubeglow, You make an important point about the voicing of speakers in SS systems. I forgot to mention the mid range drivers will be the new Satori silk domes. Apart from the benefits of their wide dispersal, I suspect Rick chose these precisely because, if anything, they will be slightly warm and not overly dry and clinical. I Hope so! The Purifis seem well set up for two way systems, but in this case, as dual 61/2" for bass duties they will combine with either a port, or passive radiators, depending which sounds best. Oh, and I made it very clear that DSP is not part of my thinking, old habits die hard.
Neither did I make it clear that I am committed to the design, so any journeys, over the next few weeks/months are more likely to be focused on veneers - enjoyed your post!
tubeglow, You make an important point about the voicing of speakers in SS systems. I forgot to mention the mid range drivers will be the new Satori silk domes. Apart from the benefits of their wide dispersal, I suspect Rick chose these precisely because, if anything, they will be slightly warm and not overly dry and clinical. I Hope so! The Purifis seem well set up for two way systems, but in this case, as dual 61/2" for bass duties they will combine with either a port, or passive radiators, depending which sounds best. Oh, and I made it very clear that DSP is not part of my thinking, old habits die hard.
Neither did I make it clear that I am committed to the design, so any journeys, over the next few weeks/months are more likely to be focused on veneers - enjoyed your post!