Narrow vs wide sweet spot, and strong bass suitable for rock/r&b/hip hop, extremely detailed, not friendly with poor recordings; all of these terms should be (reasonably?) understood by the audience here I would think.
Speaker placement is probably a limiting problem for most of us, maybe we need more wall adjacent friendly speaker designs that aren't book shelf / stand mount types. WAF is a factor, and there are plenty of designs I wouldn't want to look at in my family room.
It's always going to come down to what compromises we are willing to live with though.
Speaker placement is probably a limiting problem for most of us, maybe we need more wall adjacent friendly speaker designs that aren't book shelf / stand mount types. WAF is a factor, and there are plenty of designs I wouldn't want to look at in my family room.
It's always going to come down to what compromises we are willing to live with though.
the above are all fair statements. I like to think of the discussion here to be similar to those travelers have on tripadvisor and alike.
for example, when J. Gerhard (of Audio Physic) visited S. Linkwitz and said (paraphrasing): "Nothing could prepare me for the LX521 speakers. This is something special and I have to try it myself" and then cuts the same baffle shape when back home and starts trying out the concept with different drivers: I interpret this as a recommendation to try these speakers, akin to a recommendation from another traveler "to visit a place". Moreover, here "the place" will not even be the exact same since they did not listen to those speakers in my family room; and they had no idea of my prior experience and my expectations, so there is no way of telling what I will get out of "the trip" if I build them. But that is something I may or may not do based on their comments.
Some years ago I experienced constant directivity, distributed bass and room treatments at the home of E.Geddes. First time hearing speakers in a room that sound like they are out in a park. However, with all due respect to Earl, and this is where the personal taste comes into play, I later experimented at my home: I could make a 15inch to a 4inch driver XOver that measures ruler flat on-axis, but it would never sound nearly as good as a 3-way with an 8inch inserted in between. So regardless of the requirement to get some directivity out of a bigger and deeper cone, I would never have midrange play out of a driver bigger than 8inch, and having a 4 inch really adds a lot of special quality (to me) in the upper mid, (just like Troels also comments on). Having said that, I recognize that there is a different approach in those pursuing the monster vintage cinema-like builds with huge mids and horns, which I have little doubt is probably as gratifying to them as it is to me to play with 4 inch drivers like SS 10F. It is like tasting wine. And when you bring amplifiers into the picture and matching gear the play field expands even more, so now it becomes a discussion about "wine and food".
So, we can talk about wine but what wine you should serve at your dinner table I (or Troels) cannot tell you.
for example, when J. Gerhard (of Audio Physic) visited S. Linkwitz and said (paraphrasing): "Nothing could prepare me for the LX521 speakers. This is something special and I have to try it myself" and then cuts the same baffle shape when back home and starts trying out the concept with different drivers: I interpret this as a recommendation to try these speakers, akin to a recommendation from another traveler "to visit a place". Moreover, here "the place" will not even be the exact same since they did not listen to those speakers in my family room; and they had no idea of my prior experience and my expectations, so there is no way of telling what I will get out of "the trip" if I build them. But that is something I may or may not do based on their comments.
Some years ago I experienced constant directivity, distributed bass and room treatments at the home of E.Geddes. First time hearing speakers in a room that sound like they are out in a park. However, with all due respect to Earl, and this is where the personal taste comes into play, I later experimented at my home: I could make a 15inch to a 4inch driver XOver that measures ruler flat on-axis, but it would never sound nearly as good as a 3-way with an 8inch inserted in between. So regardless of the requirement to get some directivity out of a bigger and deeper cone, I would never have midrange play out of a driver bigger than 8inch, and having a 4 inch really adds a lot of special quality (to me) in the upper mid, (just like Troels also comments on). Having said that, I recognize that there is a different approach in those pursuing the monster vintage cinema-like builds with huge mids and horns, which I have little doubt is probably as gratifying to them as it is to me to play with 4 inch drivers like SS 10F. It is like tasting wine. And when you bring amplifiers into the picture and matching gear the play field expands even more, so now it becomes a discussion about "wine and food".
So, we can talk about wine but what wine you should serve at your dinner table I (or Troels) cannot tell you.
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the special midrange of a 4 inch driver simply comes from more sound energy off axis compared to large drivers. This can work very well, but you need a suitable room for it.
3D imaging, stage and depth can be achieved with smooth directivity. Flat on-axis measurement is of little use if it is not clean off-axis.
One of the best speakers for me when it comes to 3D sound is the H.A.V.O.F.A.S.T. from Quint-Audio. Almost only the off-axis frequency response was taken into account.
https://quint-store.com/media/files...86ab08c50686902/Baumappe HAVOFAST Studio.pdf
Good directivity is so important because outside the reverb radius, considerably more sound energy reaches the listener via reflections.
Unfortunately, many designers place little value on this. In recent years Troels has almost only focused on the positioning of the driver. However, if the listener is not exactly at the calculated point with his ears, the positioning of the drivers is no longer correct. But there are steps on the front wall, which cause early reflections.
3D imaging, stage and depth can be achieved with smooth directivity. Flat on-axis measurement is of little use if it is not clean off-axis.
One of the best speakers for me when it comes to 3D sound is the H.A.V.O.F.A.S.T. from Quint-Audio. Almost only the off-axis frequency response was taken into account.
https://quint-store.com/media/files...86ab08c50686902/Baumappe HAVOFAST Studio.pdf
Good directivity is so important because outside the reverb radius, considerably more sound energy reaches the listener via reflections.
Unfortunately, many designers place little value on this. In recent years Troels has almost only focused on the positioning of the driver. However, if the listener is not exactly at the calculated point with his ears, the positioning of the drivers is no longer correct. But there are steps on the front wall, which cause early reflections.
All the above is highly debatable ........
My room does not have reflections because the only reflection surfaces (equal size and dimensions) are the front and rear walls, but I have a huge "escape" of the waves in one from the sides (adjacent room and uneven) and the waves end up being extinguished to a significant extent before they return and impact on the conductor.
I have no problems with my wife, she has no problem receiving her friends in an environment surrounded by speakers. Or do it in the kitchen!
And never has any of them expressed the slightest desire to listen "let's see what all these gaffes are about", it seems that high-end audio is one of the few things that she to men leave us in these times ... .
Now they practice soccer, boxing, mountain biking, etc, etc, less and less "femininity". Clearly there is a need to show that they can be "equal to or better than us", who is the one competing ? Excuse me, but I am not one of those who say "go wash the dishes, but not" that they change the flat tire themselves ".... Is it understood?
Who is out of place in Mother Nature's natural cast of the sexes? This is the 21st century, and hearing so much "WAF factor" makes me think that some people "don't wear pants at home" .....
So, the speakers for a 5x5 meter room. and that they are located according to the wishes of WAF, (if they cannot be seen, better, that is their hidden and shameful desire), then so much exquisite theory is impractical, if in the end, it will be what they want ...
But all is not lost, a good pair of headphones can be
a good solution .....
Sorry for a little OT ....
8008-CORNER
My room does not have reflections because the only reflection surfaces (equal size and dimensions) are the front and rear walls, but I have a huge "escape" of the waves in one from the sides (adjacent room and uneven) and the waves end up being extinguished to a significant extent before they return and impact on the conductor.
I have no problems with my wife, she has no problem receiving her friends in an environment surrounded by speakers. Or do it in the kitchen!
And never has any of them expressed the slightest desire to listen "let's see what all these gaffes are about", it seems that high-end audio is one of the few things that she to men leave us in these times ... .
Now they practice soccer, boxing, mountain biking, etc, etc, less and less "femininity". Clearly there is a need to show that they can be "equal to or better than us", who is the one competing ?
Excuse me, but I am not one of those who say "go wash the dishes, but not" that they change the flat tire themselves ".... Is it understood?Who is out of place in Mother Nature's natural cast of the sexes? This is the 21st century, and hearing so much "WAF factor" makes me think that some people "don't wear pants at home" .....
So, the speakers for a 5x5 meter room. and that they are located according to the wishes of WAF, (if they cannot be seen, better, that is their hidden and shameful desire), then so much exquisite theory is impractical, if in the end, it will be what they want ...
But all is not lost, a good pair of headphones can be
a good solution .....
Sorry for a little OT ....
8008-CORNER
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the special midrange of a 4 inch driver simply comes from more sound energy off axis compared to large drivers. This can work very well, but you need a suitable room for it.
3D imaging, stage and depth can be achieved with smooth directivity. Flat on-axis measurement is of little use if it is not clean off-axis.
One of the best speakers for me when it comes to 3D sound is the H.A.V.O.F.A.S.T. from Quint-Audio. Almost only the off-axis frequency response was taken into account.
https://quint-store.com/media/files...86ab08c50686902/Baumappe HAVOFAST Studio.pdf
Good directivity is so important because outside the reverb radius, considerably more sound energy reaches the listener via reflections.
Unfortunately, many designers place little value on this. In recent years Troels has almost only focused on the positioning of the driver. However, if the listener is not exactly at the calculated point with his ears, the positioning of the drivers is no longer correct. But there are steps on the front wall, which cause early reflections.
Hello Rese...
I've been reading a lot regarding this Mona Kea speaker.
There is an issue, which i don't really understand through
As i read it, we can choose to blog the bassreflex port with something? - Then we will better could place speaker near wall or corner to avoid to much bass? - Is this correct ?
Another thing i cannot find is how much 3D the speaker deliver? - I actually prefer speakers that can be heard in the hole room so to say, and not being way to sensitive to a narrow listning posistion! - (This is also the reason i use averaged measurement's on my EQ/Fir filters when i use this on my SuperPlayer
)Hope you can answer my quistion's Rese and help me to clearifi this.
Rgds; Jesper.
Attachments
Yes, you can lightly stuff the vent so that it becomes aperiodic,
an aperiodic cabinet it's characteristics are between closed and bass reflex,
Troels uses it in most of his mid cabinets (so do I)
When placing speakers close to a wall/corner and you have to much bass because of unwanted roommodes,
then this aperiodic vent is a quick and easy fix.
For better mid/highs, use acoustic panels on the rear walls, these will absorb/diffuse those frequencies.
an aperiodic cabinet it's characteristics are between closed and bass reflex,
Troels uses it in most of his mid cabinets (so do I)
When placing speakers close to a wall/corner and you have to much bass because of unwanted roommodes,
then this aperiodic vent is a quick and easy fix.
For better mid/highs, use acoustic panels on the rear walls, these will absorb/diffuse those frequencies.
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Hello Rese...
I've been reading a lot regarding this Mona Kea speaker.
There is an issue, which i don't really understand through
As i read it, we can choose to blog the bassreflex port with something? - Then we will better could place speaker near wall or corner to avoid to much bass? - Is this correct ?
Hello Jesper,
that is exactly correct. The bass reflex version looks more impressive on paper, but in practice the Mona Kea often works even better when it is closed, especially when it is close to the walls.
Aperiodic can of course also be tested, but the ports of Alex's Mona Kea are tightly closed. Some builders have also built them without BR ports.
The Mona Kea is developed on a balanced frequency response off axis. Due to the 4-way principle, however, the frequency response drops very little with increasing angle. So you don't have a fixed sweet spot like horns or a large full-range speaker.
I therefore think that the MK fulfills your wishes very well.
@academia:
Not only side walls cause reflections. Floor, ceiling, tables, chairs, lamps, etc ... everything causes more or less sound reflections.
And I also believe that loudspeakers should visually fit into a room. The eye also listens.
I’m sorry, but imho people who try to treat room response by closing the BR port truly aren’t working on serious playback quality. It might be an easy fix that does something obviously, but anyone realizes you don’t alter the behavior around 100-200Hz, where proximity of a front wall causes serious trouble? A better correction would be an elaborate baffle step function in the crossover. You don’t address modal problems with level changes in LF tuning.
I don't think, Rese is talking about stuffing ports as a solution to room refections/proximity to walls per se. As you say "it does something" and that "something" doesn't get rid of front wall reflections etc., but might still feel, subjectively, preferable. Presumably, in a well treated room, or with good baffle step design, a listener may still like to bung their ports for a slightly different sonic profile? Robin Marshall of Epos and Monitor Audio lineage provided foam bungs for my es22's. Anyway, I lost them pretty quickly!
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And is that bad? An empty room is the worst of all worlds for good sound ....
Do not forget that what matters is to avoid reflections that resonate at the same wavelength.
Furniture, rugs, heavy curtains, etc. all help, but a cube-shaped room is very difficult to "fit." It can be useful to make measurements and place bass traps in this case, but in other rooms of irregular dimensions (my case) it is not always necessary
Please do not equate bass problems caused by the room geometry with the baffle step. Room mods are below 100Hz. In normal living rooms, the floor / ceiling standing wave is usually around 70Hz (at a room height of 2.5m). The other dimensions are usually larger and so are the standing waves at lower frequencies.
With the closure of the BR ports, the space problems are less strongly stimulated because it has an impact precisely in this area (20-100Hz). That's what this is all about. Lupo got that right.
Due to the case depth of 40cm, it is not possible to operate directly on the rear wall anyway. And nobody talked about squeezing the loudspeakers directly against the wall or even in a corner.
Of course, the back wall has an impact the closer the speaker gets. But that applies to all types of speakers. And with the BR ports open, this problem would be even bigger.
To conclude that we are not seriously interested in the playback quality is simply wrong.
@academia:
No, reflections are not necessarily bad, of course. Anyone who has ever listened in a room that is too damped knows that.
I thought your comment relates to my statement that more sound energy arrives at the listening position through reflections than directly from the speaker.
But I think that reflections and resonances are being mixed up a bit here.
Sorry, but I'm not pious but realistic, would it be useful to you if I keep quiet about what I think you should know?
"Lie to me that I like"? My point is, you shouldn't dig too deep into choosing the "perfect" speaker as measured by, if you're running it in a room that seems to need some acoustic treatment. Nothing serious. Troels has a link on easy-to-build bass traps.
Academia, i said the above without an ounce of sarcasm - honestly! and I'm sorry if you took it that way. My idle comment should be taken at face value. At the moment, I'm listening to Christina Pluhar's Orfeo Chaman and it sounds pretty good on my old speakers, square room or otherwise. Agree that we don't have to get too hung up, about perfect speakers, a few rules of thumb are always useful for people like me. though
This is exactly why I wrote my post. Your statement seems to show a lack of knowledge about room acoustics. What do you think reverberation is?
Second: why would you want to damp certain room modes once a speaker gets close to a wall? Modal behavior won’t change with lowering the source volume. As I suggested, it is a blunt approach on a rather complex problem.
I don't know if this is the right place to discuss room acoustics. The fact is that room modes are maximally stimulated at the place of a sound pressure maximum. And that is usually the case right on the wall. If you set up a BR loudspeaker here that is linearly tuned to below 30Hz, the room modes are strongly stimulated. If you place a closed loudspeaker at this point that does not reach that deep, it also stimulates the room modes, but with less intensity. That just works better in most living spaces. This is exactly why I use closed speakers myself and many of my personal favorites also play in a sealed box.
Of course, this is only an approximation of the optimum, but effective intervention then only works actively via DSP.
I therefore find it a bit strange to interpret this option as a weakness with the Mona Kea, where every other passive speaker reacts exactly the same, unless it is individually tuned in the room of the builder. And that is certainly not for someone who wants to recreate a project from a designer.
Of course, this is only an approximation of the optimum, but effective intervention then only works actively via DSP.
I therefore find it a bit strange to interpret this option as a weakness with the Mona Kea, where every other passive speaker reacts exactly the same, unless it is individually tuned in the room of the builder. And that is certainly not for someone who wants to recreate a project from a designer.