Thx burnt,
My amps Will do just fine with heavy eq so no issue there.
Okay so ill go with a large exciter for my mains.
Living room:L20 x w17
Dml bass panels, what could i hope for of volume and extension?
Bass panels- is it plausible to get good Sound from mounting Bass panels “flat“ on my Ceiling above the mains?
I have 17 feet of unused ceiling Width, so multible large panels with multible exciters is possible.
Im aware that i need to dampen the side of the panels thats up against the ceiling.
What materiel and size of panels do Well for bass?
I have 4 x jbl2225h i could use to help the bottom end if needed, but i would prefer to Stay with “stealthy” panels if possible.
Thx for taking the time to guide me
Ben
My pleasure Ben,
For now I would suggest you stay with your current subs, they sound more than capable. The reason why I say this is that getting deep bass from DML's is an area without consensus at the moment. There is work ongoing on this by a few contributors, and certainly bass is possible if you go large enough but you will find differing opinions on whether this is worth it. As you have a great set of bass speakers at the moment I would go with that if I were you.
For myself I am experimenting with panel ratios that seem to give more bass and arrays of panels that do the same, but I am only just getting back to building after the lock-down here has been eased, so I can't give you any assurance effective DML bass is a certainty at this point and would not want you to waste any time or money.
Burnt
Ben p.
Going Larger than 25mm coils does seem to loose HF according to the specs I've seen,about 10k for a 32mm exciter doesn't sound like a full range driver to me!
You can get 20 to25 watt exciters that produce the full frequency response and if you are XO at 100 or 200hz you will have more power and less chance of over heating.
Using a large heavy exciter on a panel to produce large amounts of LF only to XO at 200 hz does not make sense to me, especially as you have already sacrifice your precious HF.
To support the heavier exciters ,a very stiff suspension has to be used sometimes using metal,this isn't going to help the sound,sound good.
What decides the lowest frequency from the panel,is probably you,it would be far far easier to produce vast amounts of low end with your JBLs than panels,it gets very complicated with panels ,too complicated to go into now.
Steve
Going Larger than 25mm coils does seem to loose HF according to the specs I've seen,about 10k for a 32mm exciter doesn't sound like a full range driver to me!
You can get 20 to25 watt exciters that produce the full frequency response and if you are XO at 100 or 200hz you will have more power and less chance of over heating.
Using a large heavy exciter on a panel to produce large amounts of LF only to XO at 200 hz does not make sense to me, especially as you have already sacrifice your precious HF.
To support the heavier exciters ,a very stiff suspension has to be used sometimes using metal,this isn't going to help the sound,sound good.
What decides the lowest frequency from the panel,is probably you,it would be far far easier to produce vast amounts of low end with your JBLs than panels,it gets very complicated with panels ,too complicated to go into now.
Steve
here's a thought i've been considering for a 2.1 setup for a future work space:
L+R are smaller panels, perhaps 1x2' - 1.5x3', material and mount of choice, thin and rigid, exciters should, as Steve suggests, be a small coil.
.1 (or LF panel) should be a long panel, 1.5'x4' or even larger, material and mount of choice but slightly more bendy / thinner, exciter could be a 32mm or larger if you can find it.
The amp should have dsp, filters and crossovers built in for each channel (or external).
Crossing it over around 200hz, the LF panel would only have to deal with that range, and could likely reproduce it with greater ease, the same as how 2.1 is done with traditional speakers.
I'm thinking perhaps we are expecting too much of these small exciters?
This would likely not get the same depth as a good sub, but the integration would surely be better.
If anyone has a flexible DSP that can do this, it could be tested in a 1.1 configuration, sadly I don't yet, but I ordered a kit, so probably soon.
L+R are smaller panels, perhaps 1x2' - 1.5x3', material and mount of choice, thin and rigid, exciters should, as Steve suggests, be a small coil.
.1 (or LF panel) should be a long panel, 1.5'x4' or even larger, material and mount of choice but slightly more bendy / thinner, exciter could be a 32mm or larger if you can find it.
The amp should have dsp, filters and crossovers built in for each channel (or external).
Crossing it over around 200hz, the LF panel would only have to deal with that range, and could likely reproduce it with greater ease, the same as how 2.1 is done with traditional speakers.
I'm thinking perhaps we are expecting too much of these small exciters?
This would likely not get the same depth as a good sub, but the integration would surely be better.
If anyone has a flexible DSP that can do this, it could be tested in a 1.1 configuration, sadly I don't yet, but I ordered a kit, so probably soon.
At the recycle bin corner of a bike shop I picked up yesterday some double layered corrugated cardboard, made a panel of about 47 x 115 x 7mm with no parallel sides, one cutted corner and one 90° angle. The cardboard needed repair on some spots and I did a slight coating with PVA/water. The exciter (Visaton EX 60 R / 8) is mounted at 1/3rd from the bottom. Both panels are fixed with my clamps and some soft (packaging 'worms'/fillings) and/or medium (rubber foam).
When only soft damping material is used, the bass is slightly better.
Compared to the honeycomb cardboard the details of the corrugated cardboard are not that clear but overall the sound is pleasant and looks a bit better flattened over the useful frequency range.
My preference is the honeycomb cardboard but I will go on with the corrugated double layered to check out my options list.
By the way, the panels sound better from day to day. Maybe I get used to that sound,-)
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two pictures of the corrugated double layered cardboard speaker.
Attachments
Hi Steve
haven't made yet your suggestions of physical resonance amping / equalizing...
The graph with the corrugated cardboard has a smaller dip at 5.6 kHz. The picture of the panel shows the exciter mounted on a bended line of the cardboard and this probably is the cause for that.
Steve
Thank you for your advice with panel size and the information about your reflector. With the honeycomb panel I have in mind a stand with an acoustical coupled resonance chamber for the low end. At the floor close to the clamp I have a lot of acoustic energy in the low end and a resonance body (a little smaller than that of an acoustic bass;-) is on my option list.
The attraction to dml for my current room is mostly the lack of footprint. I dont need vast amounts, but I am sure i Will miss my the dynamics and the headroom of Big mid/bass drivers. I was looking at building a fullrange linearray before Reading this thread, So was gonna do away with the Big cone drivers Anyways.
Full dml might not be able to satiesfy me, but I think im willing to risk it.
100ohms, have you tried other exciters than visaton and if so How do the visaton do in comparrison?
If i take a Bet on a 2.2 close to what kaptajn intends to do, what size and or model exciter 25mm voice coil or below should i try?
Im looking at this 35,6mm voice coil exciter for the bass panels.
EX 80 S - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Kaptajn, 0.1” material thickness, what materiel and Where Can you get it near you home port?
Ben
Full dml might not be able to satiesfy me, but I think im willing to risk it.
100ohms, have you tried other exciters than visaton and if so How do the visaton do in comparrison?
If i take a Bet on a 2.2 close to what kaptajn intends to do, what size and or model exciter 25mm voice coil or below should i try?
Im looking at this 35,6mm voice coil exciter for the bass panels.
EX 80 S - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Kaptajn, 0.1” material thickness, what materiel and Where Can you get it near you home port
?Ben
Hi Ben PThe attraction to dml for my current room is mostly the lack of footprint. I dont need vast amounts, but I am sure i Will miss my the dynamics and the headroom of Big mid/bass drivers. I was looking at building a fullrange linearray before Reading this thread, So was gonna do away with the Big cone drivers Anyways.
Full dml might not be able to satiesfy me, but I think im willing to risk it.
100ohms, have you tried other exciters than visaton and if so How do the visaton do in comparrison?
If i take a Bet on a 2.2 close to what kaptajn intends to do, what size and or model exciter 25mm voice coil or below should i try?
Im looking at this 35,6mm voice coil exciter for the bass panels.
EX 80 S - 8 Ohm | Visaton
Kaptajn, 0.1” material thickness, what materiel and Where Can you get it near you home port
Ben
The visaton is beside two polyplanars (1970‘s) my only exciter. I could recommend it and for the low end please have a look at the buildings with foam by xrk, to get a small footprint
Eric
Kaptajn, 0.1” material thickness, what materiel and Where Can you get it near you home port
Ben
Ben P,
I'm currently only using DML for atmos channels in the ceiling, but had already speakers for the other 5 channels before my dml adventure, I may have gone full dml if i had found out about it earlier.
I am also far less experienced in testing materials than most other contributors here, it extends only to ply, cardboard and hardboard.
I have a couple of other projects waiting to start once the pandemic is over when I have access to our community workshop again.
One project is the 2.1 DML setup I mentioned for that workshop.
My atmos panels are 5 mm birch/spruce plywood, 2x3 feet (60x90cm), with a foam frame mount that is less then optimal, It's not bad and I'm enjoying them as effects channels, but I can't really recommend my mounting method - I expect I'll redo it at some point.
I'm in Denmark, Birch ply is easy to find most places and is not bad at all, but I suspect that even thinner than 5mm (and perhaps longer) boards could improve the frequency response further down.
I'm also considering a honeycomb cardboard panel based on 1000Ohm's experiment, I found one that is only 5mm thick that looks interesting.
https://e-plast.dk/shop/oevrige-produkter/emballage-display/swap-board-pap-med-bikubemoenster.aspx
If you wall mount I'd suggest making a mount that pushes the panels at least a foot out from the wall.
-Andreas
Hi Andreas
That‘s wonderful you could acquire 5mm honeycomb. You may also construct chairs, tables, sideboards with this material: )
Here I can get only 8mm honeycomb as smallest
Eric
Thx for the link, thats a cool bandpass sub.
Andreas, it just dawned on me that when you wrote 0.1 you did not mean a material thickness of 0.1”...
I from dk too, thats why im very interested in what you have found...
I am planning on putting my panels in floorstanding frames so i Can pull Them out from the corners when Not just using Them for background Music.
I was planning on using a 3mm birch ply for the midrange/High frequency panel.
That honeycomb isnt badly priced either, i just woudnt know what do with it. Ill see if i Can find heads n tails in 1000ohms work.
So would a 20 or 25mm excite be best for 300-17.000hz? (Im guessing my hearing wont support higher).
Ben
Andreas, it just dawned on me that when you wrote 0.1 you did not mean a material thickness of 0.1”
...I from dk too, thats why im very interested in what you have found...
I am planning on putting my panels in floorstanding frames so i Can pull Them out from the corners when Not just using Them for background Music.
I was planning on using a 3mm birch ply for the midrange/High frequency panel.
That honeycomb isnt badly priced either, i just woudnt know what do with it. Ill see if i Can find heads n tails in 1000ohms work.
So would a 20 or 25mm excite be best for 300-17.000hz? (Im guessing my hearing wont support higher).
Ben
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Thx for the link, thats a cool bandpass sub.
Andreas, it just dawned on me that when you wrote 0.1 you did not mean a material thickness of 0.1”
I from dk too, thats why im very interested in what you have found...
I am planning on putting my panels in floorstanding frames so i Can pull Them out from the corners when Not just using Them for background Music.
I was planning on using a 3mm birch ply for the midrange/High frequency panel.
That honeycomb isnt badly priced either, i just woudnt know what do with it. Ill see if i Can find heads n tails in 1000ohms work.
So would a 20 or 25mm excite be best for 300-17.000hz? (Im guessing my hearing wont support higher).
Ben
I'm using Buying a Dayton Audio DAEX30HESF-4 exciter? - SoundImports and i'm quite happy with them, however I'd consider buying daex25shf-4 for my next project.
You can probably ask Burntcoil about Buying a Dayton Audio DAEX25SHF-4 exciter? - SoundImports
It's a little pricy, but from what he's described, pretty powerful.
Dayton seems to be the preferred choice unless you are willing to sell your car for a pair of bbx - AER Loudspeakers
Where will you be getting 3mm birch ply from in DK?
I tried 5mm from bygma and jemOgFix, bygma's was quite good quality, the other absolute trash!
Normally use bygma for alot of stuf, but for ply i go to
Krydsfiner Handelen A/S They have most Sorts in either 3 or 4 mm.
They dont sell directly to consumers, but if you Are in Greater Copenhagen area and need some ply, let me know As i plan on going there pretty soon.
Yeah i Seem to remember something about that exciter in some post.
No thx, ill pass Even if those speakers look darn pretty cool. everything i Got goes into building my new small House, but i convinced myself that a decent speaker set is part of the House.
My imagination is telling me i NEED to build an Dlm mtm with minidsp 2x4 hd dirac as cross n eq.
Tall floor stranding frame with 3 panels, Max size 7,5feet High x 1,8feet wide
A bit smaller than your suggested ratios, but hopefully result Will be okay.
Visaton ex80s 300Hz n down
Daex25shx 300Hz n up
Visaton ex80s 300Hz n Down
What do you all Think?
Ben
Krydsfiner Handelen A/S They have most Sorts in either 3 or 4 mm.
They dont sell directly to consumers, but if you Are in Greater Copenhagen area and need some ply, let me know As i plan on going there pretty soon.
Yeah i Seem to remember something about that exciter in some post.
No thx, ill pass Even if those speakers look darn pretty cool. everything i Got goes into building my new small House, but i convinced myself that a decent speaker set is part of the House
.My imagination is telling me i NEED to build an Dlm mtm with minidsp 2x4 hd dirac as cross n eq.
Tall floor stranding frame with 3 panels, Max size 7,5feet High x 1,8feet wide
A bit smaller than your suggested ratios, but hopefully result Will be okay.
Visaton ex80s 300Hz n down
Daex25shx 300Hz n up
Visaton ex80s 300Hz n Down
What do you all Think?
Ben
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Ben, That's very generous of you to offer, however I think my need for ply will happen later then yours!
7.5 foot (240cm?) tall sounds ambitious, I think you could consider Spedge's thoughts about large panels for large rooms, so what are your room measurements (or will be)?
As thin ply is quite bendy and will warp over time I would also imagine you would need to either attach it directly to a rigid frame as Spedge also suggests, or perhaps a frame with foam in between.
I'm using a frame with foam, and as many others here mentions, if you go that route i'd suggest only covering roughly 60% of the edge with foam and leave the rest free, to prevent over damping.
I have no experience with those exciters, i'm sure they will do just fine. In what constellation do you intend to use them?
DSP will get you that last 10 - 15% that most panels need in order to shine in my opinion.
7.5 foot (240cm?) tall sounds ambitious, I think you could consider Spedge's thoughts about large panels for large rooms, so what are your room measurements (or will be)?
As thin ply is quite bendy and will warp over time I would also imagine you would need to either attach it directly to a rigid frame as Spedge also suggests, or perhaps a frame with foam in between.
I'm using a frame with foam, and as many others here mentions, if you go that route i'd suggest only covering roughly 60% of the edge with foam and leave the rest free, to prevent over damping.
I have no experience with those exciters, i'm sure they will do just fine. In what constellation do you intend to use them?
DSP will get you that last 10 - 15% that most panels need in order to shine in my opinion.
Yes might Sound a but ambicious, but getting 2 bass panels pr mid panel Will hopefully give it the bottom end i want.
Room dimensions
L20 x w17 x h14,5 feet
Configuration like a normal mtm, 3 separate panels - a bass panel with 1 visaton ex80s, below that a smaller Midrange/High range panel With a dayton daex25, below that Another bass panel with a visaton ex80s.
Those 3 panels mounted in 1 sturdy frame with deviders between each panels so i Can attach each panel to the frame with window foam. Exciters in the bass panels should be mounted on a spine.
It Will be “fun” figuring out How design that frame though, as sturdy, dampening and looks all should go hand in hand....
Room dimensions
L20 x w17 x h14,5 feet
Configuration like a normal mtm, 3 separate panels - a bass panel with 1 visaton ex80s, below that a smaller Midrange/High range panel With a dayton daex25, below that Another bass panel with a visaton ex80s.
Those 3 panels mounted in 1 sturdy frame with deviders between each panels so i Can attach each panel to the frame with window foam. Exciters in the bass panels should be mounted on a spine.
It Will be “fun” figuring out How design that frame though, as sturdy, dampening and looks all should go hand in hand....
OK, inspired by this thread, my DMLs are starting to take shape. I largely took inspiration from your French design, BurtCoil.
This is how they are behaving with a cheap sub, and a hint of HiFiBerry DSP.
photo host
They sound great. I'm wearing them as headphones in the office and they compare quite well to my KEF system.
This is how they are behaving with a cheap sub, and a hint of HiFiBerry DSP.
photo host
They sound great. I'm wearing them as headphones in the office and they compare quite well to my KEF system.