Thank you very much Scott! So I can stick on the design I've receipt.
I posed the question because, after reading the documents Dave posted here on rear and front load horns, I was looking at the Avantgarde Duo XD and how nice the front horn is.
https://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/files/projekt/img/produkte/duo/duo-xd/galerie/collage-duo-xd.jpg
I posed the question because, after reading the documents Dave posted here on rear and front load horns, I was looking at the Avantgarde Duo XD and how nice the front horn is.
They can be exceptional, but we should note that this is not an apples / apples comparison. A front loaded horn system is a completely different beast to a single-driver setup; for relatively full range performance with very few exceptions they're multiway speakers out of necessity. The Avantgardes for example (I assume you've been in touch with MA about this because I got a request for advice from them at 2am which happened to mention said speakers) are all 3 or 4-way systems to the best of my knowledge. Most front horns of this kind suitable for a 5 1/2in driver are unlikely to load the top end, so unless you already have a significantly elevated HF, you'll either need some EQ or a separate tweeter to balance the response.
Compound horns (back loaded bass horn with front midrange horn) can be an effective way to go but are usually done for midband EQ, either to balance off a high gain bass load to an inherent rising HF response trend from the driver (per above), or to fill in a narrow region between the upper corner frequency of the bass horn & the mass corner rolloff of the driver if the latter is excessively high. The MA drivers are basically designed for vented box loading & are therefore suitable for a bass horn load without further assistance.
Compound horns (back loaded bass horn with front midrange horn) can be an effective way to go but are usually done for midband EQ, either to balance off a high gain bass load to an inherent rising HF response trend from the driver (per above), or to fill in a narrow region between the upper corner frequency of the bass horn & the mass corner rolloff of the driver if the latter is excessively high. The MA drivers are basically designed for vented box loading & are therefore suitable for a bass horn load without further assistance.
Hi Scott, I haven't contacted anyone, but that video has been posted few days ago, so most probably it has moved some interest.
Thanks for the explanation, I'm eager to hear them in my room.
Thanks for the explanation, I'm eager to hear them in my room.
Progress slow and steady.. First cabinet horn baffle complete, now time to start laminating up the enclosure for unit #2... (then demo, tune w/ angel hair if needed, final glue-up, seal edges, wood/pore filler, sand, prime, sand, prime, sand, paint, paint, sand, clear coat and a disturbing amount of wet sanding / polish). ie. much more to do...
@yves skyhero: How are you liking you MA Silbury vs. your Fostex Victors?
@yves skyhero: How are you liking you MA Silbury vs. your Fostex Victors?
Well...it is verry strange and I can't really understand what is going on... anyway I don't really like them.
They are getting better and better but are still so far behind my victors.
First trial, I had zero highs, mids where lacking all details and bass way too present and muddy, I strated to search if I didn't did any mistake or if my speakers where not defect so I tried them in one of FHXL set, and they played the stars from the sky...no mistakes in my mesurement either...So I removed the sand from the closed back chamber and added stuffing behind the speaker, it started to improve but wasn't any close to anything good, so I contacted Dave and he told me to remove stuffing from behind the speaker and to add much more stuffing in the last horn chamber.
Nox I have 400g of stuffing in each speaker and it is still not enough, bass is getting much better, tighter and more precise, I can now hear the highs and vocals are getting close to decent... But I thing that it is still missing stuffing, but I don't have any no more so have to wait for my next delivery.
Problem is accentued with my 300b set amp, when used on transistor amp like my sansui AU9500 it's much better but too far behind the victors on the 300b...
Once I receive my stuffing, I will continue testing to see how good I can make them.
With my fhxl's it was the same a lot of testing adding stuffing, remove stuffing, move speakers around to find a sweet spot, etc etc,
So I am still full of hope, but at the moment not convinced...
Really looking forward for your impressions and testings, I am sure that I must have been doing something wrong somewhere as many finds them just excelent...
Yves
They are getting better and better but are still so far behind my victors.
First trial, I had zero highs, mids where lacking all details and bass way too present and muddy, I strated to search if I didn't did any mistake or if my speakers where not defect so I tried them in one of FHXL set, and they played the stars from the sky...no mistakes in my mesurement either...So I removed the sand from the closed back chamber and added stuffing behind the speaker, it started to improve but wasn't any close to anything good, so I contacted Dave and he told me to remove stuffing from behind the speaker and to add much more stuffing in the last horn chamber.
Nox I have 400g of stuffing in each speaker and it is still not enough, bass is getting much better, tighter and more precise, I can now hear the highs and vocals are getting close to decent... But I thing that it is still missing stuffing, but I don't have any no more so have to wait for my next delivery.
Problem is accentued with my 300b set amp, when used on transistor amp like my sansui AU9500 it's much better but too far behind the victors on the 300b...
Once I receive my stuffing, I will continue testing to see how good I can make them.
With my fhxl's it was the same a lot of testing adding stuffing, remove stuffing, move speakers around to find a sweet spot, etc etc,
So I am still full of hope, but at the moment not convinced...
Really looking forward for your impressions and testings, I am sure that I must have been doing something wrong somewhere as many finds them just excelent...
Yves
Hi, how would you build the outrigger? Small weels on it would be very detrimental?
It's a way to find a balance between sound and WAF for dust.
It's a way to find a balance between sound and WAF for dust.
Wheels are usually not a good idea. And you do not want to significantly lift thenm off the floor.
I have some nice aluminum bars we had made for FHs, that work well. Points can be installed but typiclly we just add some felt pads.
dave
I have some nice aluminum bars we had made for FHs, that work well. Points can be installed but typiclly we just add some felt pads.
dave
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Particularly on hard surface flooring, I always found the thin Felt-tak style felt pads to work like a charm, and never managed to scratch a floor with them.
Hi Dave, thanks for the reply! Chrisb thank you as well.
I think the shipping would cost too much. I'll tro to deisgn them in autocad and check if I can make them locally.
I think the shipping would cost too much. I'll tro to deisgn them in autocad and check if I can make them locally.
First one complete and clamped up for testing.. These "little" buggers are north of 50kg each once all assembled. Couldn't help but get a sneak peak on sound character, which is not truly fair as its an unbalanced mono source but, "detailed, crisp and large" were the words I initially wrote down. Laying out the carbon fabric for the next panels; now I ""know"" what I'm doing, I hope the 2nd unit will progress smoother and quicker. In light of Yves's comments above, I'm really anxious to get the pair running to compare / contrast my build to his.
Once I have the pair in place I will experiment w/ angel hair in the last horn, but will be starting my eval w/o stuffing. The only damping in the enclosure is a small amount of 1/2" F-13 felted wool on the side walls of chamber behind the driver to support the diffuser (pictured in previous posts).
Once I have the pair in place I will experiment w/ angel hair in the last horn, but will be starting my eval w/o stuffing. The only damping in the enclosure is a small amount of 1/2" F-13 felted wool on the side walls of chamber behind the driver to support the diffuser (pictured in previous posts).
I have now putting them on spikes, added as much stuffing as the design allows, and added sand bags inside the first chamber... they are now playing better and better and are equal to my FHXLs but with more gain...still my victors with enabl FE168NS
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yes sure, for stuffing, I used the visaton damping stuffing that I use in all my builds, I spend hours teasing it, like described in many other posts here, well teased stuffing allow tighter and rapid bass that I like without sacrifying the real lower end capabilities, for example when listening to some live concerts, you have that background floating low end deep sound, I don't like to have this one overwhealming the rest of the sound but I still like to feel it... and most of the speakers I owned where or too heavy and boomy or too dry...my FHXL's where the first I heard to be able to deliver crisp and clear sound all over the range, Victor's are total other league...but now the silbury's are getting closer...unteased damping hust lower the sound level but make's it muddy, same waeight well teased make a huge difference, I added a verry little in the first chamber,and in the first gate, than added as much as possible in the last chamber, a bit more on the bottom than on the top, for sand bags, I used plastic bags to make ice cubes, filled them and sealed them, added pair by pair untill I had better definition in the low end without sacrifying mids smoothness...it was a step by step process like usual with FR ...
Any insight into the theory behind the poor top end response and sloppy low end that would improve with the addition of so much stuffing in the horn and mass damping (assuming that's what the sand bags are doing). ??
well honnestly I have no Idea of why things helps or not, I have ZERO level at understanding how it really works... but I think that I have good hears, so I try and if it sounds better to me than I keep going in that direction...probably that the pro's will have some sharper opinions on it...
strange thing I had to remove all the sand used to fill the close chambers to have a more ballanced sound and better sound stage
@yves skyhero thank you alot, is it this one? https://www.thomann.de/it/visaton_daempfungsmaterial.htm
@planet10 @Scottmoose is it recommended by you as well?
@planet10 @Scottmoose is it recommended by you as well?