A single fullrange simply just cannot give dipole radiation pattern for more tha 2-3 octaves, and even that requires heavy equalization. It is dictated by physics and even Deckert can't overcome that.
What is the benefit of multiway dipole over OB 1-2 way? Less distortion and wider range of dipole radiation. OB typically loose dipole pattern above 1-2kHz, and if the tweeter is monopole, there is no backside radiation at all. By my experience I can verify that above 6-8kHz that is different to hear, but even then it can be seen in measurements.
Uneven pattern makes decayed "room response" more uneven and spatially different. Typical hifi listening happens at "far-field" when decayed response is more important than direct sound.
This difference is not overwhelming and is room-dependant, it needs direct comparison to be heard (for most people). A good OB can sound very good/satisfactory overall, except lowest bass. Same applies for panels like Magnepan, Quad etc.
Please study Linkwitz's pages, how his dipoles evolved from passive 2-ways to active 4-ways!
Burning Amp 2017 - Siegfried Linkwitz - YouTube
What is the benefit of multiway dipole over OB 1-2 way? Less distortion and wider range of dipole radiation. OB typically loose dipole pattern above 1-2kHz, and if the tweeter is monopole, there is no backside radiation at all. By my experience I can verify that above 6-8kHz that is different to hear, but even then it can be seen in measurements.
Uneven pattern makes decayed "room response" more uneven and spatially different. Typical hifi listening happens at "far-field" when decayed response is more important than direct sound.
This difference is not overwhelming and is room-dependant, it needs direct comparison to be heard (for most people). A good OB can sound very good/satisfactory overall, except lowest bass. Same applies for panels like Magnepan, Quad etc.
Please study Linkwitz's pages, how his dipoles evolved from passive 2-ways to active 4-ways!
Burning Amp 2017 - Siegfried Linkwitz - YouTube
Last edited:
Is constant directivity more important in a larger room than a smaller one and where near field listening is the norm?
Yes, as far as I understand, and by my experience too. We must think about dipoles as omnipoles, with reduced lateral radiation. They need space even more! But this diffuse an room-filling sound is not what modern hifists have learned to expect and value... ( time travel back to 1950-60's when a big mono console or a single Bose 901 was high-end!)
I think that a dipole or OB speaker needs lots of "air to breath" - to avoid strong early reflections and to give more delay and "mixing" for reflected soundwaves. In 90% of pictures of them they are in a corner, which is worst scenario! Best scenario is a large room and speakers on the long wall. (Linkwitz gives totally different recommendation!)
A friend has 2-way line array dipoles (with monopole horn tweeter) in a dedicated highly damped room (RT30 0.1), and they sound almost like point source monopoles, not at all like they should in my opinion! Another friend has Acoustat panels in a narrow "normal" living room and they work better, but sound varies awfully much if one leaves the hot spot.
I think that a dipole or OB speaker needs lots of "air to breath" - to avoid strong early reflections and to give more delay and "mixing" for reflected soundwaves. In 90% of pictures of them they are in a corner, which is worst scenario! Best scenario is a large room and speakers on the long wall. (Linkwitz gives totally different recommendation!)
A friend has 2-way line array dipoles (with monopole horn tweeter) in a dedicated highly damped room (RT30 0.1), and they sound almost like point source monopoles, not at all like they should in my opinion! Another friend has Acoustat panels in a narrow "normal" living room and they work better, but sound varies awfully much if one leaves the hot spot.
Attachments
I think you make a very good point and one that is easily missed when considering single full range drivers over a multi-way configuration. I'll restate it in slightly different terms to see if this is what you are talking about.
A large full range driver is going to start beaming at a much lower frequency than a smaller one. That's going to mean less dispersed energy, particularly in the mid and high range, and the need for the speakers to be pointed more directly at the listener. So this is more suited for near field listening by one person in a sweet spot.
But in order to fill the room and get a more open ambience type effect with wider dispersion and more room reflections, a multi-way speaker with several smaller drivers for the mid and high range is needed. That will greatly reduce the overall beaming effect.
Does that accurately describe the difference?
A large full range driver is going to start beaming at a much lower frequency than a smaller one. That's going to mean less dispersed energy, particularly in the mid and high range, and the need for the speakers to be pointed more directly at the listener. So this is more suited for near field listening by one person in a sweet spot.
But in order to fill the room and get a more open ambience type effect with wider dispersion and more room reflections, a multi-way speaker with several smaller drivers for the mid and high range is needed. That will greatly reduce the overall beaming effect.
Does that accurately describe the difference?
I started with fullrange in open baffle which was sounding nice. But after hearing the upper mid and high from AMT, I do not want to go back. Now I am busy with a new speaker on basis of custom 15", 6" 18 sounds 6ND430 mid and large Heil AMT (dipole). I use Harsch XO for better transients. The baffle has a bottle shape, wider for woofer, narrow for mid. The speaker is still work in progress, but I like it already more than previous ones...
classicalfan - yes pretty much so. A widely experienced listener's preference of speakers typically follows favourite music style, listening room and habits. You can't get that experience by visiting hifi shops and audio shows - go to other hifist's homes and listening rooms with friends, listen and discuss! I have friends with extremely good bought/diy hifi equipment and sound with synergy horns, panels, line arrays, dipoles and boxes. And every system sounds different!
Modern hifi listeners seem to value direct sound, sharp stereo image and snappy transients. I can understand this and I can reach that pretty much in my HT room, but because the room is so small bass modes are impossible to manage - they are so location-dependant. However I do most listening of pop, jazz and classical in my living room with AINOgradient multiway dipoles. Radio plays music for several hours on background too and we watch tv with stereo/5ch sound from AINOs. Classical orchestra music sounds almost lifelike and still stereo imaging is fine and mono gets smack dab in the middle!
Lowest bass with closed box 10" (sub)woofers starts from 15 Hz. Many people including Linkwitz himself have urged me to build dipole bass units, but I can't reason myself for that. I'm afraid that I don't have enough room to set them correctly. I believe that when placed too close to wall, backside energy dominates because of wall boost and delay - just like with floor/wall-coupled monopoles in AINOs. Minimal lateral radiation might reduce lateral room modes, but in my living room modes are not a problem anyway, because it is open and asymmetric.
My most valuable sources of knowledge with dipoles have been, and I've contacted and got help from these ingenious guys over the years
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Dipolplus - Alles über offene Schallwände
Original Offerings
Modern hifi listeners seem to value direct sound, sharp stereo image and snappy transients. I can understand this and I can reach that pretty much in my HT room, but because the room is so small bass modes are impossible to manage - they are so location-dependant. However I do most listening of pop, jazz and classical in my living room with AINOgradient multiway dipoles. Radio plays music for several hours on background too and we watch tv with stereo/5ch sound from AINOs. Classical orchestra music sounds almost lifelike and still stereo imaging is fine and mono gets smack dab in the middle!
Lowest bass with closed box 10" (sub)woofers starts from 15 Hz. Many people including Linkwitz himself have urged me to build dipole bass units, but I can't reason myself for that. I'm afraid that I don't have enough room to set them correctly. I believe that when placed too close to wall, backside energy dominates because of wall boost and delay - just like with floor/wall-coupled monopoles in AINOs. Minimal lateral radiation might reduce lateral room modes, but in my living room modes are not a problem anyway, because it is open and asymmetric.
My most valuable sources of knowledge with dipoles have been, and I've contacted and got help from these ingenious guys over the years
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Dipolplus - Alles über offene Schallwände
Original Offerings
Last edited:
too bad you are not closer to audition mine:
Kick@#! winged OBs for pick up in Ontario
if you were to decide to make these I could look up the XO files to tell you exactly what filters I had.
Kick@#! winged OBs for pick up in Ontario
if you were to decide to make these I could look up the XO files to tell you exactly what filters I had.
Last edited:
I came to some conclusion with the help of an other OB-build:
Fin, a full range phase linear open baffle speaker, with measurements
Cuibono started with exact the same goal, and came to a 3-way with 2*10" for LF
1* TB-w4-1320 for MF
1* BG Neo 3
I have seen some distortion polts for the tb-w4 for 90dm/1m and 100db/1m. They are very very good. easy use from 100hz up.
Cuibono came to the conclusion that if a driver in his configuration makes problems at very very high spl levels, then it is the neo3 (crossed @2,6khz). additionally he tried to cross @1,7khz at moderate level to see if the better vertical pattern will make a audible difference in audience. But no!
So we can take some conclusion:
- Vertically it is very likely not needed to get perfect dispersion. The neo 3 with tb-w4 crossed @ 2,6 or 1,8 khz didn't made difference at low spl. This is viewpoint of many other diy-folks.
- Horizontally the most people try to achieve a even dispersion with a target curve (see toole). If we use the neo 3 vertical positioned we get a better target curve and a better dispersion horizontally.
- For HF i see only the neo3 (most people like it) and probably the oc25sc from peerless (less experience about it). If we look at the distortion plot and we know we can cross the tb-w4 @ 2,6 khz, the oc25sc should be superior!
Look here:
Vifa OC25SC65-04 | HiFiCompass
and here:
https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/images/stories/chassis/bg_Neo3raw/Neo3R_1_C01_Kx_20cm_85-100dB.gif
The neo3 is good. But how do the oc25sc compare? What do you recommend?
- For MF i will take the TB-W4-1320 sj. The reason. Horizontally its perfect. Vertically it is enough (if there is no audible difference with the crossovers at 1,8 or 2,6khz, then there will not be that much difference if a would take a smaller driver like SS 10F or Hivi B3s). Will a bigger 5" or 6" be better. I think it's not needed. The tb was not the weak point of cuibonos dipol.
- The most of you recommend an active XO. i talked with cuibono. First we wanted to have a passive xo but it was unachievable. So i will go active with 2 cheap wondom dsp boards (one for 25$) and an 7.1avr or some cheap d-class amps.
What do you recommend?
-LF section will be like the modipo -dipol. 20hz
What do you think about the HF-section and the amps for the active XO?
Best regards, Tomas
Fin, a full range phase linear open baffle speaker, with measurements
Cuibono started with exact the same goal, and came to a 3-way with 2*10" for LF
1* TB-w4-1320 for MF
1* BG Neo 3
I have seen some distortion polts for the tb-w4 for 90dm/1m and 100db/1m. They are very very good. easy use from 100hz up.
Cuibono came to the conclusion that if a driver in his configuration makes problems at very very high spl levels, then it is the neo3 (crossed @2,6khz). additionally he tried to cross @1,7khz at moderate level to see if the better vertical pattern will make a audible difference in audience. But no!
So we can take some conclusion:
- Vertically it is very likely not needed to get perfect dispersion. The neo 3 with tb-w4 crossed @ 2,6 or 1,8 khz didn't made difference at low spl. This is viewpoint of many other diy-folks.
- Horizontally the most people try to achieve a even dispersion with a target curve (see toole). If we use the neo 3 vertical positioned we get a better target curve and a better dispersion horizontally.
- For HF i see only the neo3 (most people like it) and probably the oc25sc from peerless (less experience about it). If we look at the distortion plot and we know we can cross the tb-w4 @ 2,6 khz, the oc25sc should be superior!
Look here:
Vifa OC25SC65-04 | HiFiCompass
and here:
https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/images/stories/chassis/bg_Neo3raw/Neo3R_1_C01_Kx_20cm_85-100dB.gif
The neo3 is good. But how do the oc25sc compare? What do you recommend?
- For MF i will take the TB-W4-1320 sj. The reason. Horizontally its perfect. Vertically it is enough (if there is no audible difference with the crossovers at 1,8 or 2,6khz, then there will not be that much difference if a would take a smaller driver like SS 10F or Hivi B3s). Will a bigger 5" or 6" be better. I think it's not needed. The tb was not the weak point of cuibonos dipol.
- The most of you recommend an active XO. i talked with cuibono. First we wanted to have a passive xo but it was unachievable. So i will go active with 2 cheap wondom dsp boards (one for 25$) and an 7.1avr or some cheap d-class amps.
What do you recommend?
-LF section will be like the modipo -dipol. 20hz
What do you think about the HF-section and the amps for the active XO?
Best regards, Tomas
Sounds good! With multiway actives and for first such project, amp choice is the easiest - start with anything you have or can get for cheap. When you find that you are satisfied with system otherwise, you can try different amplifiers almost on the fly - just set gain levels again!
In my projects, in proto and early stage I have used my old and second hand stereo and AV multichannel amps. Now I have a ICEpower 2x50W module with line in and speaker outs in an semiopen box for tests.
I can't hear or measure any difference between amps, when gain is set to give same spl. For bass and midrange dipole power requirement is higher, but be careful not to break drivers! Open drivers easily go "bottoming" and continuous high power may burn the voice coil!
In my projects, in proto and early stage I have used my old and second hand stereo and AV multichannel amps. Now I have a ICEpower 2x50W module with line in and speaker outs in an semiopen box for tests.
I can't hear or measure any difference between amps, when gain is set to give same spl. For bass and midrange dipole power requirement is higher, but be careful not to break drivers! Open drivers easily go "bottoming" and continuous high power may burn the voice coil!
I would advise to consider Hypex Fusion plate amps. They combine very good Class D amps (up till 3 channels), good DAC and DSP. ADC is also included, but I use a digital source. I bought the Fusion 253, 2x250W + 100W. Also a 2x500W + 100W version is available. Cost is very reasonable for what you get. Remote control option.
Regarding drivers, I doubt a 50W 3mm xmax 4" driver will do well up to 100 Hz in open baffle. I guess you will run out of steam quickly. I use a 6" driver and only want to go to 300 Hz, maybe 200-250 Hz, also distortion wise. Depends on baffle size also. I use an ESS AMT which can cross lower than Neo3, so 6" size is no issue. Not sure how they compare soundwise though.
Regarding drivers, I doubt a 50W 3mm xmax 4" driver will do well up to 100 Hz in open baffle. I guess you will run out of steam quickly. I use a 6" driver and only want to go to 300 Hz, maybe 200-250 Hz, also distortion wise. Depends on baffle size also. I use an ESS AMT which can cross lower than Neo3, so 6" size is no issue. Not sure how they compare soundwise though.
100hz was only regarding the nice distortion profile. i will probably cross at 300hz (similar to the fin dipole). Alternatives are for example the visaton al 130. But like i have seen on the forum with the fin, the tb-w4 is good enough.
I can get sometimes an avr 7.1 for 50-70€. For this price the only competitor are some class d amp as boards probably from china. But i would like to have at least 25-50w/amp. (i want to try it first as cheap as possible).
Do you think the oc25sc is worth a try? Do you have any negative experience with the neo3 (or grs...)?
I can get sometimes an avr 7.1 for 50-70€. For this price the only competitor are some class d amp as boards probably from china. But i would like to have at least 25-50w/amp. (i want to try it first as cheap as possible).
Do you think the oc25sc is worth a try? Do you have any negative experience with the neo3 (or grs...)?
I have started with a cheap solution to go active:
As 6-channel Amplifier: 7.1 AVR Onkyo TX-SR804E used 67$
(In the www are very nice and easy solutions hot to add preouts and mainins to avr if needed)
DSP:
- Adau 1701 Sure board 20$
(it has 4 analog channel out)
- Programmer CY7C68013A-56) 5$
- DAC PCM 5102 5$
(to get additional 2 analog channel out)
This is a 100$ active solution. Now ihave to wait 1 month
BTW. do you know .kartesian speaker?
Speaker Kartesian Lom120_vPA, 8 ohm, 106 x 106 inch
They should be very interesting for dipoles because of the vented design.
Greetings
As 6-channel Amplifier: 7.1 AVR Onkyo TX-SR804E used 67$
(In the www are very nice and easy solutions hot to add preouts and mainins to avr if needed)
DSP:
- Adau 1701 Sure board 20$
(it has 4 analog channel out)
- Programmer CY7C68013A-56) 5$
- DAC PCM 5102 5$
(to get additional 2 analog channel out)
This is a 100$ active solution. Now ihave to wait 1 month
BTW. do you know .kartesian speaker?
Speaker Kartesian Lom120_vPA, 8 ohm, 106 x 106 inch
They should be very interesting for dipoles because of the vented design.
Greetings
Update:
I decided to go with the grs pt2252 alias neo 3. I think the target curve (toole...) is easier to achieve with the grs then with the oc25sc. Additionally the neo3 is very well known and if i want to make a passive crossover in the future, it will be a little easier.
So the first build up will be like this:
Grs pt2522 (configuration like in the AinoGradient from jahuzi)
w4-1320sj (like in the "fin" from Cuibono)
2 or 3* spp-250 (like in the MODIPO dipole)
Regarding the w4 again: Cuibono said that for his fin dipole the neo3 was the limited element. I believe him. Look at these exceptional distortion graphs: Bester 4" Mitteltöner?
I decided to go with the grs pt2252 alias neo 3. I think the target curve (toole...) is easier to achieve with the grs then with the oc25sc. Additionally the neo3 is very well known and if i want to make a passive crossover in the future, it will be a little easier.
So the first build up will be like this:
Grs pt2522 (configuration like in the AinoGradient from jahuzi)
w4-1320sj (like in the "fin" from Cuibono)
2 or 3* spp-250 (like in the MODIPO dipole)
Regarding the w4 again: Cuibono said that for his fin dipole the neo3 was the limited element. I believe him. Look at these exceptional distortion graphs: Bester 4" Mitteltöner?
One of the less known solutions could be the LF from the MoDiPo:
It looks to be unintentionally a hybrid of a nxt and a dipol. The simulation showed this bass-response:
Or:
But the measurement...:
Some links:
Modipo -Hörbericht von Bertramxxl - Seite 2
MoDiPo (vorgestellt in K+T 05/11) – Donhighend Audio
Basic question on OB
It would be very interesting to discuss this. How to intentionally achieve it with a dipole? We could take the modipo and look how the measurements differs if we change some parameters.
My idea is, that with the high qts the spp-250 works like a exciter near the resonance frequency. Especially 3 of them could make a additionally bass boost. Take a look at this study:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://orca.cf.ac.uk/56177/&ved=2ahUKEwjnybCL3pzvAhVLyaQKHQU7A-kQFjAAegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw2z7M-MlocFrYL3zXvuEGOJ
Go Hybrid
It looks to be unintentionally a hybrid of a nxt and a dipol. The simulation showed this bass-response:
Or:
But the measurement...:
Some links:
Modipo -Hörbericht von Bertramxxl - Seite 2
MoDiPo (vorgestellt in K+T 05/11) – Donhighend Audio
Basic question on OB
It would be very interesting to discuss this. How to intentionally achieve it with a dipole? We could take the modipo and look how the measurements differs if we change some parameters.
My idea is, that with the high qts the spp-250 works like a exciter near the resonance frequency. Especially 3 of them could make a additionally bass boost. Take a look at this study:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://orca.cf.ac.uk/56177/&ved=2ahUKEwjnybCL3pzvAhVLyaQKHQU7A-kQFjAAegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw2z7M-MlocFrYL3zXvuEGOJ
Go Hybrid
Hello again,
the next weeks i will go to build it. I need still some design advises. It would be very nice if you have some ideas.
LF-section:
Like the Modipo (but other finish). They used 19mm mdf.
Mid and High Frequency-Section:???
In the Modipo they only glued the upper section on the LF-section. This was not good enough. After transportation it was not 100% firm and therefore it had distortion at MF.
Any solutions?
I could glue some wood angle on it an hang the driver on a rope.
But how it will look
the next weeks i will go to build it. I need still some design advises. It would be very nice if you have some ideas.
LF-section:
Like the Modipo (but other finish). They used 19mm mdf.
Mid and High Frequency-Section:???
In the Modipo they only glued the upper section on the LF-section. This was not good enough. After transportation it was not 100% firm and therefore it had distortion at MF.
Any solutions?
I could glue some wood angle on it an hang the driver on a rope.
But how it will look