Hi Tupa, welcome!
With respect to the Xerxes plinth sag, I also had made several attempts to cure it, before opting for a new plinth. Enclosed a photo, where two horizontal screws can be seen, connecting the two parts of the plinth, to keep them aligned.
With respect to the motor, Origin Live recommends to place it (screw it) on the top plate of the plinth. I have tried it and found that the best approach is to keep it completely detached from either plinth plate.
Now I am investigating the potential improvement by having a new motor (probably a Maxon DCX22L 18V), but I am cautious whether the Origin Live controller (which usually goes with a Premotec 12V motor) can drive a 18V motor. Hopefully it should. I am in touch with Maxon to get more insights about the appropriateness of the DCX22 motor for my application.
At the same time, I am also looking forward to Niffy's feedback, who should be receiving his new motor anytime, as we speak.
With respect to the Xerxes plinth sag, I also had made several attempts to cure it, before opting for a new plinth. Enclosed a photo, where two horizontal screws can be seen, connecting the two parts of the plinth, to keep them aligned.
With respect to the motor, Origin Live recommends to place it (screw it) on the top plate of the plinth. I have tried it and found that the best approach is to keep it completely detached from either plinth plate.
Now I am investigating the potential improvement by having a new motor (probably a Maxon DCX22L 18V), but I am cautious whether the Origin Live controller (which usually goes with a Premotec 12V motor) can drive a 18V motor. Hopefully it should. I am in touch with Maxon to get more insights about the appropriateness of the DCX22 motor for my application.
At the same time, I am also looking forward to Niffy's feedback, who should be receiving his new motor anytime, as we speak.
Attachments
On the subject of longevity of sleeve bearings I don’t see an issue for a turntable application. You just need to keep the radial load on the pulley within limits. Maxon motors with 3mm shafts usually state 3 newtons as max load. I think you can drive a belt with 1N or less so suggest you have the belt as slack as you can to keep the load down. I have been testing a Faulhaber motor recently (2237CRX) and thought I had damaged the bearing since the belt felt quite tight. I measured the load and it was 1.5N, so that wasn’t the problem.
Be careful when pressing the pulley on; the tail of the shaft needs to react the load.
I have made many motor pulleys as part of my hobby and they are not so easy to make. Getting a good pulley made for a bespoke application is not something I see discussed on here. I have a lathe and the experience, and the perfect 2.98mm reamer. If anyone needs a pulley making I could help out…
Be careful when pressing the pulley on; the tail of the shaft needs to react the load.
I have made many motor pulleys as part of my hobby and they are not so easy to make. Getting a good pulley made for a bespoke application is not something I see discussed on here. I have a lathe and the experience, and the perfect 2.98mm reamer. If anyone needs a pulley making I could help out…
Thanks for letting us know. It's great to have someone being capable of building pulleys. And thanks for the feedback about the maximum radial force on motor shafts / bearings. Obviously the motors we are discussing have not been designed for radial stresses, but as a matter of fact I do not think there is a way to transfer torque without any radial stress on the motor shaft.
Having said that, my intention to convert my Xerxes from belt-drive to rim-drive is rather risky to end up in exerting too much radial force (actually, bending moment) on the shaft. I hope the sintered leave bearings will be able to handle it. At the same time I will have to find the optimal rotational speed of the motor. Currently with a motor pulley of 1.2cm diameter, I am calculating (estimating) approx. 727rpm, which might be unnecessarily high for the motor. Perhaps I may be able to reduce it a bit, but hoping not to go below 3.5V during normal operation. We'll see what happens when the motor arrives. I have not ordered it yet, but I am leaning on the Maxon DCX22L 18V.
As mentioned in previous posts of mine in this thread, from a feasibility point of view, I have seen that even my current Premotec motor seem quite capable of operating in a rim drive mode (under the platter from the inside circumference of the platter).
It's great that are a group of people exchanging experiences and ideas. -))
Having said that, my intention to convert my Xerxes from belt-drive to rim-drive is rather risky to end up in exerting too much radial force (actually, bending moment) on the shaft. I hope the sintered leave bearings will be able to handle it. At the same time I will have to find the optimal rotational speed of the motor. Currently with a motor pulley of 1.2cm diameter, I am calculating (estimating) approx. 727rpm, which might be unnecessarily high for the motor. Perhaps I may be able to reduce it a bit, but hoping not to go below 3.5V during normal operation. We'll see what happens when the motor arrives. I have not ordered it yet, but I am leaning on the Maxon DCX22L 18V.
As mentioned in previous posts of mine in this thread, from a feasibility point of view, I have seen that even my current Premotec motor seem quite capable of operating in a rim drive mode (under the platter from the inside circumference of the platter).
It's great that are a group of people exchanging experiences and ideas. -))
Hi everyone,
My Maxon motor has finally arrived.
The packaging quality was exquisite and completely over the top.
Fitted to motor plate with new pulley attached.
The improvements this motor has wrought are much greater than I had expected or even hoped for.
The most obvious difference is in tonal colour, rich and fully saturated. Top to bottom. The Premotec sounds a bit thin in comparison. It really brings out vocals superbly.
Image width hasn't changed much, a tiny bit wider. Image depth is much improved, deeper and better layered. Separation has improved as a result. A more natural soundstage.
Microdynamics and nuance of individual instruments really brings the character out. Sounds even more like real instruments.
Bass seems to go deeper and is better textured, more detailed.
Doesn't seem to have improved the leading edge of notes but definitely has the body and decay.
I listened to the motor directly with a mechanics stethoscope. It's a little quieter than the Premotec at 33 1/3rpm. The Premotec has quietened a lot since it was new, hopefully the Maxon will too. The noise of the Maxon is higher in frequency and more consistent, less variable.
The noise level increases less going from 33 1/3 to 45rpm than it does with the Premotec.
Overall it has lead to a more musically engaging sound. Very happy so far.
I've only had it up and running for about 3hrs so far, I suspect that it still has quite a lot of break-in too go.
I'm going to get in contact with Origin Live tomorrow to arrange for an Ultra controller as part of their upgrade deal.
Niffy
My Maxon motor has finally arrived.
The packaging quality was exquisite and completely over the top.
Fitted to motor plate with new pulley attached.
The improvements this motor has wrought are much greater than I had expected or even hoped for.
The most obvious difference is in tonal colour, rich and fully saturated. Top to bottom. The Premotec sounds a bit thin in comparison. It really brings out vocals superbly.
Image width hasn't changed much, a tiny bit wider. Image depth is much improved, deeper and better layered. Separation has improved as a result. A more natural soundstage.
Microdynamics and nuance of individual instruments really brings the character out. Sounds even more like real instruments.
Bass seems to go deeper and is better textured, more detailed.
Doesn't seem to have improved the leading edge of notes but definitely has the body and decay.
I listened to the motor directly with a mechanics stethoscope. It's a little quieter than the Premotec at 33 1/3rpm. The Premotec has quietened a lot since it was new, hopefully the Maxon will too. The noise of the Maxon is higher in frequency and more consistent, less variable.
The noise level increases less going from 33 1/3 to 45rpm than it does with the Premotec.
Overall it has lead to a more musically engaging sound. Very happy so far.
I've only had it up and running for about 3hrs so far, I suspect that it still has quite a lot of break-in too go.
I'm going to get in contact with Origin Live tomorrow to arrange for an Ultra controller as part of their upgrade deal.
Niffy
That's great and very encouraging news, Niffy. It's been clearly worth the wait. How did you press-fit the pulley?
I understand that you are using your Origin Live controller with the Maxon RE-max motor, right?
Have you perhaps measured (with a multimeter) the voltage applied to the motor at your operating point? What is the speed of the motor?
I guess it will become even better with time.
Cheers,
Panos
P.S. I am about to pull the trigger on a Maxon DCX22L 18V tomorrow or the day after.
I understand that you are using your Origin Live controller with the Maxon RE-max motor, right?
Have you perhaps measured (with a multimeter) the voltage applied to the motor at your operating point? What is the speed of the motor?
I guess it will become even better with time.
Cheers,
Panos
P.S. I am about to pull the trigger on a Maxon DCX22L 18V tomorrow or the day after.
Hi Panos,
To press fit the pulley I used my drill press. I faced an M10 bolt which I secured in the chuck. I placed a set of small kitchen scales on the table. This allows me to apply the force directly inline with the motors axis. The scales allowed me to monitor the amount of force applied.
I am using the Origin Live advance controller with the Maxon motor.
I haven't tested with a volt-meter. I selected the motor so that, with sub-platter and pulley, the controller output voltage will be around 5volts. The motor speed is about 300rpm.
I hope it does improve with break in. The Premotec did.
Good luck with the DCX22. As it's a stock item it should be quicker to turn up.
Niffy
To press fit the pulley I used my drill press. I faced an M10 bolt which I secured in the chuck. I placed a set of small kitchen scales on the table. This allows me to apply the force directly inline with the motors axis. The scales allowed me to monitor the amount of force applied.
I am using the Origin Live advance controller with the Maxon motor.
I haven't tested with a volt-meter. I selected the motor so that, with sub-platter and pulley, the controller output voltage will be around 5volts. The motor speed is about 300rpm.
I hope it does improve with break in. The Premotec did.
Good luck with the DCX22. As it's a stock item it should be quicker to turn up.
Niffy
Thanks for the feedback, Niffy. May I ask where you sourced the pulley from?
In my case (rim-drive experiment) I would to test various sizes of pulleys and o-rings, to find the preferable set. I am wondering where I can find such pulleys, without having to create new pulleys from scratch. Any ideas perhaps? Does it make any difference whether the pulley is made of metal or plastic?
Cheers,
Panos
In my case (rim-drive experiment) I would to test various sizes of pulleys and o-rings, to find the preferable set. I am wondering where I can find such pulleys, without having to create new pulleys from scratch. Any ideas perhaps? Does it make any difference whether the pulley is made of metal or plastic?
Cheers,
Panos
I made the pulley myself.
I'm afraid that I don't know where you can source premade pulleys.
I made my pulley from Delrin though I am of course using belts. I suspect that metal will be better for a rim drive.
Niffy
I'm afraid that I don't know where you can source premade pulleys.
I made my pulley from Delrin though I am of course using belts. I suspect that metal will be better for a rim drive.
Niffy
Hi, it seems that using some Maxon motors as turntable motor can cause problems (see here) :
https://theanalogdept.com/maxon.htm
As said in the article, it is not known which specific Maxon motor models are affected and if this issue is currently fixed.
https://theanalogdept.com/maxon.htm
As said in the article, it is not known which specific Maxon motor models are affected and if this issue is currently fixed.
Why don't any suitable DC motors use electronic commutation ie stepper motors? Commutators and brushes just seem a bad and electrically noisy idea
Very good question.
Also why not use Brushless motors both types give V Precise commutation/speed control
Price is certainly Not a factor as Steppers are ubiquitous and decent quality ones start at a whopping 10$ each.
Even those inexpensive versions feature radial bearing loading specs
Add in a simple arduino controller.
Or If feeling Flush a 15$ state of the art TMC stepper driver.
Boggles the imagination TBH.
IMO Fairly likely the Ostrich approach is for the Time proven reason: "ain't what Granpappy used"
Also why not use Brushless motors both types give V Precise commutation/speed control
Price is certainly Not a factor as Steppers are ubiquitous and decent quality ones start at a whopping 10$ each.
Even those inexpensive versions feature radial bearing loading specs
Add in a simple arduino controller.
Or If feeling Flush a 15$ state of the art TMC stepper driver.
Boggles the imagination TBH.
IMO Fairly likely the Ostrich approach is for the Time proven reason: "ain't what Granpappy used"
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That’s exactly the problem I have had with DCX22 motors. I have bought three and two of them suffered speed problems after being in test for a few weeks. One is still ok and has worked well for over 6 months in my LP12 so hopefully will continue. Maxon told me this can happen with low speed operation and gold flake coating on the brushes is the fix. However that option is not available to the public.
Deano,
have you considered returning the two faulty motors to Maxon? Have you informed them about the situation and how did they respond?
I am curious, because I am about to order a DCX22L with sintered sleeve bearing and precious metal brushes, but your experience makes me wonder whether I may be opening a can of worms. Alternatively I may go for a Premotec motor (either 16141 or 16703).
Thoughts please?
have you considered returning the two faulty motors to Maxon? Have you informed them about the situation and how did they respond?
I am curious, because I am about to order a DCX22L with sintered sleeve bearing and precious metal brushes, but your experience makes me wonder whether I may be opening a can of worms. Alternatively I may go for a Premotec motor (either 16141 or 16703).
Thoughts please?
I didn’t send the motors back but did engage with an engineer via their website. He explained the issue with low speed operation. There was no offer to refund. He stated they could build me a ’special’ motor with gold flake coating but it would be very expensive for small quantity of motors, due to NRE. He did offer to sell me a motor that was suitable, and I went for that although it was expensive (£270). I think the motor I have is a Linn Radikal 1 - RE Max part number 531434. Another chap on here tried to buy the same part but they refused.
I suggest you make an enquiry to Maxon regarding suitability to the application. If they are ok with the motor you have chosen this should help with guarantee. I’m also wondering if a run in procedure may help. My own experience with one out of three motors working shows the problem is not always going to occur.
I suggest you make an enquiry to Maxon regarding suitability to the application. If they are ok with the motor you have chosen this should help with guarantee. I’m also wondering if a run in procedure may help. My own experience with one out of three motors working shows the problem is not always going to occur.
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Thanks, Mark, for the details. I've already engaged with a sales engineer at Maxon, but he has not refused to offer my a DCX22L with sintered sleeve bearings for turntable use. I am wondering what I should do. Perhaps look at a model with ball bearings to be sure? My Premotec 18105 motor is VERY quiet, but is also rather weak (if I try to stop it with my hand). Maybe it's not an issue of the motor, but of the controller (Origin Live)?
I would like to stress that I am looking for a rim-drive application and perhaps I should consider the motor and the controller as a system and not separated... ?
I would like to stress that I am looking for a rim-drive application and perhaps I should consider the motor and the controller as a system and not separated... ?
I don’t think you need ball bearings. The problem is with the brushes. You could say you have heard there can be problems with speed control. Ask him how likely this could occur, and is there a suggested running in procedure. You could also ask if graphite brushes are better in this regard.
Mark, thanks for the suggestion. It makes sense. After all I have been running my Premotec 18105 motor (which also has sintered sleeve bearings) for more than 15 years and it is quiet as ever. I can hardly hear it whisper from 5cm distance. So, why would the Maxon motor with sintered sleeve bearings be so quick to fail? It would be strange.
Maxon is suggesting not to operate under 500rpm when using sintered sleeve bearings. And here is a comparison of the two types of bearings...
https://support.maxongroup.com/hc/e...174-Bearings-Sintered-sleeve-or-ball-bearings
Cheers.
Maxon is suggesting not to operate under 500rpm when using sintered sleeve bearings. And here is a comparison of the two types of bearings...
https://support.maxongroup.com/hc/e...174-Bearings-Sintered-sleeve-or-ball-bearings
Cheers.
Niffy (Nathan),
any newer impressions from the Maxon RE-max, that you've recently received? Has it become any quieter? Can it sustain stable speed?
Thanks
Cheers,
Panos
Hi Panos,
I haven't been able to do much more testing, I got a rather nasty bug and have been laid up in bed for a couple of days.
I have received an Origin Live Ultra controller and have only managed to get it set up and running. I haven't managed a proper comparison to the Advanced yet. First impression is that it's more tilted towards the top end. It seems more detailed but might have lost some of the bottom end fullness and texture. This was with the controller cold straight from the post. It's been left plugged in for a couple of days, I left it running the platter at 33 1/3rpm for around 8hrs to help run it and the motor in. I have the old wall-wart power supply so have both controllers powered up and will just swap the better supply when comparing.
When I made my belts I measured how much stretch the material had. I then made the belt length so that there would be 0.7N of side force on the motor shaft and idler wheels. Like you I have been using my sintered bearing Premotec for many years with no issues, it has actually gotten quieter over the years.
If I do find that I have any speed stability issues running at 300rpm I can easily increase motor speed by making a smaller pulley. I haven't noticed any yet but it is early days with only around 24hrs use so far.
Niffy
I haven't been able to do much more testing, I got a rather nasty bug and have been laid up in bed for a couple of days.
I have received an Origin Live Ultra controller and have only managed to get it set up and running. I haven't managed a proper comparison to the Advanced yet. First impression is that it's more tilted towards the top end. It seems more detailed but might have lost some of the bottom end fullness and texture. This was with the controller cold straight from the post. It's been left plugged in for a couple of days, I left it running the platter at 33 1/3rpm for around 8hrs to help run it and the motor in. I have the old wall-wart power supply so have both controllers powered up and will just swap the better supply when comparing.
When I made my belts I measured how much stretch the material had. I then made the belt length so that there would be 0.7N of side force on the motor shaft and idler wheels. Like you I have been using my sintered bearing Premotec for many years with no issues, it has actually gotten quieter over the years.
If I do find that I have any speed stability issues running at 300rpm I can easily increase motor speed by making a smaller pulley. I haven't noticed any yet but it is early days with only around 24hrs use so far.
Niffy
Niffy,
I hope you get well very soon.
I also have been 'window shopping' or 'shopping around' to get some offers for motors that I might consider. So, I've received offers for Premotec 16141 and 16703 (both around 250€, incl. delivery) and for the DCX22L - 18V at around 270€, incl. delivery. I am a bit hesitant about the DCX, because although I can drive it at around 700 rpm to avoid any longevity problems, I do not know what the effect of that (higher) speed will be on motor noise.
By the way, would it be too much to ask if you measured the voltage of your RE-max motor at 300rpm under load, i.e. with the cartridge on the record?
Many thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Panos
I hope you get well very soon.
I also have been 'window shopping' or 'shopping around' to get some offers for motors that I might consider. So, I've received offers for Premotec 16141 and 16703 (both around 250€, incl. delivery) and for the DCX22L - 18V at around 270€, incl. delivery. I am a bit hesitant about the DCX, because although I can drive it at around 700 rpm to avoid any longevity problems, I do not know what the effect of that (higher) speed will be on motor noise.
By the way, would it be too much to ask if you measured the voltage of your RE-max motor at 300rpm under load, i.e. with the cartridge on the record?
Many thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Panos