Have advise in it sounds you in process dial in slopes by ears, that is listen as far field as possible and preferable at listening position, observe that head/ears are positioned in exactly same place in space for each critical listening session to tweak the filter and sound contour.
That is because acoustic filter slopes are aprox always 90º out of phase with a XO summing region that covers a huge banwidth portion in a decade or so. Because of the out of phase slope feature then a change of ears height a bit will relative also change system summing of the response and is the weak thing for acoustic summing using out of phase filters, that was verticals position but will predict horisontals also suffer for head position and that is because RS225 have a 10dB dip about 3kHz area or is not really smooth above 1,8kHz area. Had XO slope been a in phase type at say 800Hz 4th or 8th order this position thing could mostly be ignored but the steeper slopes would of course ruin the nice step response compared to used filter.
Know sound of this speaker build probably is very enjoyable and most will say i really can't hear a difference changing vertical or horisontal position, that is fine enough and probably how hearing works for most, but if we sweep the system at different positions in space then each and every impulse/step response will be unique and probably a big influence the reason why this system for many sound so magic.
Speaking of very enjoyable speakers, just for a well-repected reference and a very different design to compare to, I ordered some LS50s, taking advantage of the KEF recent bargain prices.
The thing is, my WAW Reference Monitors have been really singing lately. I settled on an attentuation level for the 10F/8414, returned to 4.0 mH on the RS225, improved my speaker stand situation, went with more toe-in, moved some acoustic treatment around in the room. It is simple hard for me to imagine the KEFs sounding better overall. Different, yes I'm sure of that.
Should be fun!
The thing is, my WAW Reference Monitors have been really singing lately. I settled on an attentuation level for the 10F/8414, returned to 4.0 mH on the RS225, improved my speaker stand situation, went with more toe-in, moved some acoustic treatment around in the room. It is simple hard for me to imagine the KEFs sounding better overall. Different, yes I'm sure of that.
Should be fun!
I have not compared them side by side but I have heard LS50 in the showroom several times. They are impressive speakers for their size, no doubt. They utilize ported bass reflex so the bass reach might seem lower, but won’t be as clean. In general, it’s tough for a 5.25in woofer to compete with a quality 8in woofer. The mid range on the 10F though is tough for any speaker to beat, especially when it used two drivers to cover the main bandwidth sweetspot of the 10F.
I have not heard them that I can recall, but hope or expect them to be an excellent nearfield monitor, particularly in repect to imaging and neutral presentation. Will be interested to see if I notice the much poorer phase linearity. Very hard to predict how the little reflex boxes will do in my 13x14 room, but I'm hoping they don't try to overdo it and fail. I have no complaints about the WAW bass pervormance - a difficult act to follow.
At times I find myselt wondering how a scratch-built pair of speakers from plans on a DIY audio website, costing around $500, could be as good as I believe them to be. I've attended the RMAF in the last few years, and I love to come home and quickly compare my system to what I just heard. My conculsion is that only a few rooms at the show are better at the parameters I value.
At times I find myselt wondering how a scratch-built pair of speakers from plans on a DIY audio website, costing around $500, could be as good as I believe them to be. I've attended the RMAF in the last few years, and I love to come home and quickly compare my system to what I just heard. My conculsion is that only a few rooms at the show are better at the parameters I value.
Thank you for the kind words! Great ad copy, btw!
One reason these speakers sound great is that they were designed via good theory with collective wisdom from very smart people here who helped me. They were measured, tested, and tweaked. The design process is not unlike a commercial company spending $$ on research and development. In the end, we have a speaker that checks a lot of the right boxes and is relatively inexpensive to make.
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They're out for delivery today (UPS Saturday?). Have read they need 100 - 200hrs break in, but should show me something of their basic character right away. Having also read overwhelmingly positive-to-ecstatic reports, my expectations are pretty high.
I don't want them to embarrass the WAW monitors, but more to confirm how good they actually are and serve as an alternative presentation, partly since they are a true point-source design.
I don't want them to embarrass the WAW monitors, but more to confirm how good they actually are and serve as an alternative presentation, partly since they are a true point-source design.
BOM 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
Hey X, i was wondering when padding down R1 for the TC9, to say 2.2ohms, would you also adjust the value for R2 equally, to 2.2ohms or would R2 stay at 4.7ohms?
Also could you recommend part numbers for C3 and R5 on the woofer trap?
Here is the BOM for the XO, all from Parts Express. This is for the 10F/RS225. For TC9FD, you may wish to use a smaller value on R1 (try 2.2ohm, or even 1ohm). Parallel the 2x 27uF and 6.8uF to make one 61uF cap. There is an intrinsic DCR R4 from the inductor included in the XO sim for the woofer but do not add any resistors to the woofer.
Product Name Sku Qty Price Total
Dayton Audio DNR-4.7 4.7 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor 004-4.7 4 $1.09 $4.36
Dayton Audio DMPC-27 27uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 027-439 4 $8.58 $34.32
Dayton Audio DNR-0.51 0.51 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor 004-.51 2 $1.38 $2.76
Dayton Audio DNR-10 10 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor 004-10 2 $1.38 $2.76
Dayton Audio DMPC-2.2 2.2uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 027-415 2 $1.87 $3.74
Dayton Audio DMPC-6.8 6.8uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor 027-424 2 $2.75 $5.50
Jantzen Audio 4.0mH 18 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil 255-280 2 $20.91 $41.82
Hey X, i was wondering when padding down R1 for the TC9, to say 2.2ohms, would you also adjust the value for R2 equally, to 2.2ohms or would R2 stay at 4.7ohms?
Also could you recommend part numbers for C3 and R5 on the woofer trap?
Would this work in place of R5? Mills 0.5 Ohm 12W Non-Inductive Resistor
Also would 2 x 2.2uf caps in parallel for C3 be fine?
Also would 2 x 2.2uf caps in parallel for C3 be fine?
Yes and yes. I actually use two 2.2uF film caps which is how I got 4.4uF. This is a first order crossover so the filters are very broad. There is a lot of wiggle room so if you can’t get a perfect value, that’s ok.
Looking forward to seeing another 10F/ RS225 FAST (or in this case, TC9FD/RS225 FAST) born.
Looking forward to seeing another 10F/ RS225 FAST (or in this case, TC9FD/RS225 FAST) born.
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I will be starting my construction of a version of this system and will be having a few questions.
I am going with 2 x RS225-8 per channel in a 48 litre cab. I have lots of amp channels available so I am not concerned about a level mismatch.
My question today is about the 61uf cap. What frequency does that correspond to and can I instead put that 6db filter in front of the amp? I have a custom tube preamp and I have to use a coupling cap anyway, so I am thinking I will just use the appropriate value to get the same -3db point as the passive cap.
Also, the 4.4uf has to be doubled and the .47ohm has to be halved with the pair of RS225's. I already have the 2.0mh.
I am going with 2 x RS225-8 per channel in a 48 litre cab. I have lots of amp channels available so I am not concerned about a level mismatch.
My question today is about the 61uf cap. What frequency does that correspond to and can I instead put that 6db filter in front of the amp? I have a custom tube preamp and I have to use a coupling cap anyway, so I am thinking I will just use the appropriate value to get the same -3db point as the passive cap.
Also, the 4.4uf has to be doubled and the .47ohm has to be halved with the pair of RS225's. I already have the 2.0mh.
The 61uF cap is electrically about 600Hz, but acoustically when I look at the response it is closer to 900Hz. If you are going to do this actively, the main thing to do is to use a measurement mic and REW. Deviating from the official “plan” posted here, I cannot guarantee how well the drivers will be integrated.
Is the reason you want to do it as a line level filter, to avoid having to use such a big cap? You can do it with a $2 bipolar 50uF cap and parallel with a 10uF film cap if that helps save some money.
Even going with dual RS225’s in parallel - I am not sure how that all plays out - simply by halving inductor and for the notch filter 4.4uF and 0.47R - how does it look in Xsim?
The proof that it is all well integrated will be a nice right triangle shaped step response and a flat response from 100Hz to 15kHz with minimal phase variation.
Is the reason you want to do it as a line level filter, to avoid having to use such a big cap? You can do it with a $2 bipolar 50uF cap and parallel with a 10uF film cap if that helps save some money.
Even going with dual RS225’s in parallel - I am not sure how that all plays out - simply by halving inductor and for the notch filter 4.4uF and 0.47R - how does it look in Xsim?
The proof that it is all well integrated will be a nice right triangle shaped step response and a flat response from 100Hz to 15kHz with minimal phase variation.
For active setup guess if you remove measured frd file from 10F and turn off woofer then XSim default to the flat response so from now on response chart will present the exactly filter gain based on used component plus the real impedance that still should be loaded using a zma file for enclosure situation.
Should look close to below, now export that as frd file and load it into Rephase or REW and use whatever EQ numbers to flat it out will give the EQ numbers to set in a DSP unit as a copy of the passive filter gain.
Attachments
10f-8424 Clone
Has anyone tried the Thiel 10f/8424G?
THIEL 10F/8424G02 4" Fiberglass Midrange 8 ohm (DRVM-060-01)
Thanks JimS
Has anyone tried the Thiel 10f/8424G?
THIEL 10F/8424G02 4" Fiberglass Midrange 8 ohm (DRVM-060-01)
Thanks JimS
That’s made by ScanSpeak but a truncated frame and aqua color painted 10F/8424. For all intents and purposes it is 10F/8424. Qts and fs are slightly different but I bet for this speaker, it would work fine. The cutout rebate is a bit of a pain to deal with. Nice price. Interesting color.
Thanks for the tip.
Thanks for the tip.
Those are the ones I will be using. I was assured they were the same as the model in this thread.
Like OntMax, I'm considering building a pair with 2xRS225-8s, Several yeas ago I won 4x 10F/4424s and hope these will work. If I drive the 225s in parallel, is it 'simply' a matter of doubling and halving the component values in your crossover design? Nothing's that simple, but would I end up in a position to make relatively small changes in values get to a very good result?
Thanks
Thanks