I have missed your post before. You only posted the link 😀😛😆.
90db, near-field listening, low volume levels. A lot of check boxes are ticked (or checked). Ticked of Checked, what's the better English?
I have never heard of Joseph Crowe's designs before.
It has a loudness (increase of mid bass and bass) functionality to allow good listening experience at lower volume levels.
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just build this one
loudspeaker made by a professional and its very affordable
visaton Let's Dance by Don Highend
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...acor-full-range-offerings.415989/post-7757158
loudspeaker made by a professional and its very affordable
visaton Let's Dance by Don Highend
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...acor-full-range-offerings.415989/post-7757158
While we are at Don Highend, I think the Alta Voce is a better fit, excellent spl and very nice to look at. As usual, thoroughly developed and documented, an impedance compensation and flat phase. Very low distortion. That speaker (and others!) was excluded initially because it's not a 3-way. I don't want to hide its downside either, it doesn't go much below 50 Hz. That's a speaker I would build myself - if I hadn't already the same concept but with Celestion drivers.
Alta Voce with Lavoce italy drivers (Don High End)
so it does not get lost
so it does not get lost
If a 2-way is acceptable, there are some very nice speakers I would endorse.
Hobby HiFi magazine 'Celeste', excellent in linearity and stage reproduction, great dynamics and good spl, impedance compensation possible/optional, not super cheap but way less than the former 3-way, low distortion. I'd build them with a flat bottom and steel feet or a kind of pedestal or square wood feet.
Hobby HiFi magazine HiFi-PA 2x8/2, goes deeper, bit less spl, very impulsive, very detailed, excellent resolution and dynamics. Put the port on the back though, you avoid the 90° port bend and the 0,5dB spl loss will be more than compensated by the port being closer to the wall. That 'side but most to the front port' is butt ugly and BT's almost maniac grab to fame what he 'invented' is just ridiculous, I've built speaker top or bottom ports in the late 80s when he crossed over a ringradiator at 2k and lower when it was actually usable above 5k. Sry for rambling on, that speaker is really nice and still way below the budget limit.
Hobby HiFi magazine 'Celeste', excellent in linearity and stage reproduction, great dynamics and good spl, impedance compensation possible/optional, not super cheap but way less than the former 3-way, low distortion. I'd build them with a flat bottom and steel feet or a kind of pedestal or square wood feet.
Hobby HiFi magazine HiFi-PA 2x8/2, goes deeper, bit less spl, very impulsive, very detailed, excellent resolution and dynamics. Put the port on the back though, you avoid the 90° port bend and the 0,5dB spl loss will be more than compensated by the port being closer to the wall. That 'side but most to the front port' is butt ugly and BT's almost maniac grab to fame what he 'invented' is just ridiculous, I've built speaker top or bottom ports in the late 80s when he crossed over a ringradiator at 2k and lower when it was actually usable above 5k. Sry for rambling on, that speaker is really nice and still way below the budget limit.
Quite good once you add phase plugs. They largely tame the laser-like rising response and significantlt improves HF dispersion. Doesn’t really fit into a box. OB, Boffle, or aperiodic box.
SEAS FA22 should also be considered, it is a bit easier to deal with box wize (i’d suggest 45-60 litres sealed), also needs a phase plug (i haven’t met a whizzer cone driver that does not benefit from phase plugs). These are mine. Downsairs driven by an ACA.
These plugs work for both of them, the FA22 needs notches in the PP base to clear the non-flat bits on the pole piece.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/B200-phase-plug.pdf
dave
Just an idea, but you could email the various kit suppliers with your requirements, room size and budget and see what they suggest. Yes, they're commercial operators and want to sell you something, but I've found that - in Oz, anyway - they're staffed by enthusiasts who love to talk about this stuff and are happy to help.
It wouldn't work for you, but in our case I spent many months researching options before I emailed the designer of one kit I was considering and he suggested something different and better, i.e. the MTMs I mentioned above.
I haven't been counting the suggestions in this thread, but I understand your confusion as to which way to go.
Geoff
Absolutely right. They are nice for PC speakers or (for bass) the Needle (German forum). Other drivers are performing better in the Needle though.
That's completely right. I going to compile all the information I got within this thread. And thanks a million to all you guys.
@ICG
@DCE1198
@indianajo
@GeoffMillar
@planet10
@olsond3
@AllenB
@tonyEE
@angchuck
@markbakk
@Sasha KC83
@PKAudio
@Freedom666
When I have narrowed to one or a cople of speakers, I try to get a possibility to listen to some if the designs or to some designs of a specific designer.
The perseption of sound is highly subjectiv. What are clear and brilliant highs for someone is already harsh for the next one. The same bass may be sound controlled and thight for me, and your perseption is muddy and uncontrolled. There is neither right nor wrong in Hifi. It's a matter of personal taste and expectation.
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You are right about that. It would certainly help if you could refine your requirements, ie if you rate stage location/precision over linearity or if you still prefer 3-way over 2-way, details/resolution over homogenity etc.
The bass is a completely different issue since it always depends very much on the room and speaker placement.
It would be very beneficial to hear about your preferences, 3-way is a restriction but doesn't say why you prefer it and if 2-way speakers could also fulfill your requirements. So far, you've set the requirements destinctively but that may change with suggestions, 2-way may (or maybe may not) fulfill your expextations too - what are the criteria you'd be content with to change?
The bass is a completely different issue since it always depends very much on the room and speaker placement.
It would be very beneficial to hear about your preferences, 3-way is a restriction but doesn't say why you prefer it and if 2-way speakers could also fulfill your requirements. So far, you've set the requirements destinctively but that may change with suggestions, 2-way may (or maybe may not) fulfill your expextations too - what are the criteria you'd be content with to change?
A 12 db/octave crossover for 8 ohm matched level drivers at 10000 hz, butterworth #'s is
1. parallel the woofer a 1.41 uF capactitor. Series the cap+woofer combo, a 180 mH inductor.
2. parallel the tweeter a 180 mH inductor. Series the inductor+tweeter combo, a 1.41 uF capacitor.
Use polyprophylene capacitors of at least 100 v rating for 75 w amps. For 40 watt drivers 18 ga air coil inductors are fine. If your system goes to 200 w, upgrade to 15 gauge and 200 v caps. To make odd value capacitors parallel two smaller value ones which add together. To Make odd value inductors take a bigger one and unwind wire until you reach the right inductance. (Requires meter). If the 2 drivers are not matched in overall sound level, use a >10 watt resistor or L-pad series the more sensitive one to turn down the volume . Reference David B. Weems Designing Building and Testing your Own Speaker System 4th ed.
I looked at some 2 cm dome tweeters on madisound, but most of the <$50 ones were 4 ohms and < 90 db 1w1m sensitivity. Unsuitable to match a BG17-8. A mallory piezo would be perfect for 1 m on axis listening at 10000-20000 hz, but they do not make them anymore. Only cheap imitations. I had some Mallories in a pair of Peavey 1210 that were pretty good on my synthesizer for performing Christmas cantatas.
Can you Elfriede even hear >10000 hz? Most of my male friends cannot. boats, chainsaws, lawnmowers, fireworks motorcycles firearms club music ruined their HF hearing decades ago. Before spending $$$$ you need to do a hearing test with good ($40) headphones (not a cellphone). Due to extensive use of earplugs my hearing goes to 14000 hz.
That don highend Alta Voce crossover has 19 inductors and capacitors. May be a nice sound but those things are not cheap. Also looks as if the mid-range is spread over 50 cm which would smear the sound if you sat 1.5 m away.
Reason I jumped in the thread started with the inevitable Troels Gravison and his scan speak drivers. Looked at some scanspeak prices on madisound, $$$. I'm building some un-fencable (ugly, no pawn shop would buy them) SP2 copies with eminence drivers, ~$450 each plus wood, construction. Suitable only for 3 m or further listening, unfortunately.
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Take a look on SB Acoustics ARA by StereoArt - it is modified kit based on SB Acoustics ARA kit.
SB Satori drivers are excellent, and guys paid a lot attention to crossover upgrade.
New crossover have much better frequency response and better phase transition from driver to driver and excellent off-axis.
You can build your own cabinets or get with kit the ones built by SB Acoustics (black, white, red, orange in high-gloss) - very good quality cabinets including everything you need - damping, bolts, terminals, round grilles.
While it is only 2-way bookshelf, it will fit perfectly to your 12m2 room and you will not feel lack of bass.
SB Acoustics MW16P-4 goes quite low - about 45Hz -3dB in a ported box.
Sensitivity: it is a tricky parameter - depends where you draw an average line.
It look like 87.5-89.5dB and fits to +-2dB 200-20kHz
Indeed, 15W tube amp will drive fine - tried it with Audes ATA-134 - I do not feel lack of power:
3-way: in that small room it is not a good a good idea. 3-Way's crossover is frequency and phase (time delay) integration of 3 drivers with different locations on a baffle. And even if crossover is optimal, while listening from a short distance you may stay out of optimal angles to drivers (= different distance = time delay = phase shift). 2-way bookshelf will please you more, and it is much easier to design with a good phase transitions and easier and cheaper to build.
P.S.: as you in Portugal, get in a contact with Jocavi for free acoustic project
Couple of diffiser panels is a must-have option for man-cave 😉
Why a 3-way-design (or 2.5 ways)
I do not have that much technical back ground. I cannot develop a speaker on my own. I can only tell what my impressions is now and was in the past.
In short
I prefer that one driver plays the major part in the mid-range (500 till 4,000 Hz). It is supported by a tweeter and woofer on the higher and lower ends. The extreme would be a fullrange driver with no XO (or slight sound level reduction) for the midrange. Of course the Fullranger helps also a bit in the lows and highs.
Now the longer version. How did I come up with this 3-way, yes or no.
I listened to commercial designs in 1-way, 2-way, 2.5 ways, 3-ways etc. Of course a developer can always do it badly, any design. Better a good designed 1-way speaker than a bad designed 3-way speaker. And in a tight budget more drivers and more XO-components do mean either spend more quids or reduce the quality. That's obvious.
I did two 1-way DIY speakers with small drivers (4inch, Mark Audio CHO90 and Fostex 103) on my own. Very simple, without any XO. I listend also 1-way speakers with diameter of around 8 inch. What my impression is about the small fullrange drivers, that this type would need at least support in the bass. When adding a woofer, it is not about getting more bass. It is to reduce the impact of the Doppler effect (the compression of frequencies). If using one of the larger fullrangers, e.g. a 8 inch, the Doppler effect gets less dominant.
When I listend to 1-way single speaker designs where a small single driver (3 to 5 inch) is used, they always sounded kind of squeaky and dreary, at least partially. It is like a record playing on a certain moment at too high a speed. Or the musician that can't hold the tone. I don't how to describe the effect in a better way. Obviouly the frequency is changed.
And it is not only adding a woofer with a low-pass filter, but rather blend the small fullrange driver a bit out of the work in the lower frequencies. With a larger fullrange driver this effect is less obvious, because the larger 8 inch driver moves shorter distances and the Doppler Effect (compression of frequencies) is less.
An the other point is, as said already about, that I feel that own driver for the mid-range feels better. When doing a 2-way design, XO point in most of the cases is already deep in the mid-range. When crossing on a lower level, there might other problems and issue.
This is what my current experience is. My technical picture is not 100%. So, correct my if my assumption is completely wrong.
