Any experience with Visaton TIW 300? Might be an alternative.
For anyone reading, I think in my case, the best action would be buying a pair of Faital 12RS430 and measuring them. And if they are not what I'm looking for, AE TD12S looks like the niche driver that nobody wants to do anymore. I couldn't find an alternative to it here in the EU.
For anyone reading, I think in my case, the best action would be buying a pair of Faital 12RS430 and measuring them. And if they are not what I'm looking for, AE TD12S looks like the niche driver that nobody wants to do anymore. I couldn't find an alternative to it here in the EU.
With current prices, you are going to pay a fortune to get those 2 drivers to Portugal.
Here's a detailed breakup:
And after taxes:
So basically 847€ per driver.
The AE drivers "only" make sense if you want to take advantage of the extended midrange.
As you want to cross between 700-900, there's a lot of drivers that can reach that range.
Here's a detailed breakup:
And after taxes:
So basically 847€ per driver.
The AE drivers "only" make sense if you want to take advantage of the extended midrange.
As you want to cross between 700-900, there's a lot of drivers that can reach that range.
If I give €1500 to my wife, she will allow me to put bigger speakers to our living room…
Jokes aside, this is too expensive for a woofer that I’ll not fully utilize as you wrote!
For reference, my Klipsch Forte 1s with 12" woofers have an internal volume of about 80l, sensitivity of better than 94db, and reach into the mid 30hz range, woofers covering up to 700hz, and can probably go higher. They also showed by far the lowest bass distortion ever yet measured by Hirsch at the time (mid 1980s). So it can be done.
I finally got the chance to see Faital’s measurements. It’s definitely OK until 800 Hz, below 95 dB. So I’ll be using it if I don’t change my design.
Hi there,
if you want the speakers to sound good also at low listening levels and not only in PA concert situations there are two values that you should pay attention to
high Qms value
low Rms value / to compare only for a specified size of chassis / do not compare Rms of a 3 inch FR with Rms of a 12 inch PA mid woofer
i like very much the custom builds of Istvan in Hungary www.sonido.hu
hope it helps, Stefano
this one have the highet Qms / lowest Rms value i have seen for the size, custom build with phase plug but no whizzer cone and capton voice coil carrier instead of aluminium voice coil carrier
being fixed on this type of considearations there is another one you can look at
https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/bass-midranges/paw-30-nd-8-ohm
street price lower than the price on the website
if you want the speakers to sound good also at low listening levels and not only in PA concert situations there are two values that you should pay attention to
high Qms value
low Rms value / to compare only for a specified size of chassis / do not compare Rms of a 3 inch FR with Rms of a 12 inch PA mid woofer
i like very much the custom builds of Istvan in Hungary www.sonido.hu
hope it helps, Stefano
this one have the highet Qms / lowest Rms value i have seen for the size, custom build with phase plug but no whizzer cone and capton voice coil carrier instead of aluminium voice coil carrier
being fixed on this type of considearations there is another one you can look at
https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/bass-midranges/paw-30-nd-8-ohm
street price lower than the price on the website
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The question is why will you like an efficient 2 ways VS a low efficienty 3 ways, as far musicality is involved as well as a little listening room with short listening distances ?
Do you want to use low wattage tube amps ? Do you like the subjective chest bang than some high efficienty loudspeakers provide over low eff better soundstage and coherence most of the time ?
Anyway few choices with a as high cut off for the 12". Projects like mezzo Calapamos in 2 ways or 3 ways are appealing as you have DSP. Or @mbrennwa project, all with the 12PR320 vented due to the highish Fs due its good sensivity.
If high efficienty not a need, as you can attenuate the CD in the trebles with the active DSP and if choosing a 3 ways, a better driver than most of the one talked is the SB34RNXL you can boost in the lows thanks the active filter and DSP : then it works in 50 to 55L sealed (see @profiguy inputs for illustration), but due to thd here a 3 ways is needed. This 12" has the lowest THD of the talked drivers, in paar with the scanspeak 12", but is usable till 500 hz max, so nope for 2 ways but if you have a huge horn and a 1.4" that goes low.
The real problem if a 3 ways with a 12" and a 1" or 1.4" compression driver is the radiation patern matching between drivers you have not in the 2 ways you planned around the >= 800 hz cut offs frequencies with most of the horns (ATH4 project here comes in mind for the horn). With a 3 ways you need to match the mid with a horn and a 1"... not easy.
As you have not a huge room, not sure high eficienty and horn is neede due to the dhort listening distance, then a 3 ways will bring a lot of pleasure imho as you have the freedom of active DSP.
Something perhaps like a 12PR320 sealed or 12RS43 or 12PR320 vented witha Hivi 3" dome and a wave guided tweeter could be stratospheric good sound too if the drivers involved in the open monkey box project here is too expensive due to the price increases.
But again if you have SET 3 whatts tube amps, forget it.
my 2 cents to open the talking.
Do you want to use low wattage tube amps ? Do you like the subjective chest bang than some high efficienty loudspeakers provide over low eff better soundstage and coherence most of the time ?
Anyway few choices with a as high cut off for the 12". Projects like mezzo Calapamos in 2 ways or 3 ways are appealing as you have DSP. Or @mbrennwa project, all with the 12PR320 vented due to the highish Fs due its good sensivity.
If high efficienty not a need, as you can attenuate the CD in the trebles with the active DSP and if choosing a 3 ways, a better driver than most of the one talked is the SB34RNXL you can boost in the lows thanks the active filter and DSP : then it works in 50 to 55L sealed (see @profiguy inputs for illustration), but due to thd here a 3 ways is needed. This 12" has the lowest THD of the talked drivers, in paar with the scanspeak 12", but is usable till 500 hz max, so nope for 2 ways but if you have a huge horn and a 1.4" that goes low.
The real problem if a 3 ways with a 12" and a 1" or 1.4" compression driver is the radiation patern matching between drivers you have not in the 2 ways you planned around the >= 800 hz cut offs frequencies with most of the horns (ATH4 project here comes in mind for the horn). With a 3 ways you need to match the mid with a horn and a 1"... not easy.
As you have not a huge room, not sure high eficienty and horn is neede due to the dhort listening distance, then a 3 ways will bring a lot of pleasure imho as you have the freedom of active DSP.
Something perhaps like a 12PR320 sealed or 12RS43 or 12PR320 vented witha Hivi 3" dome and a wave guided tweeter could be stratospheric good sound too if the drivers involved in the open monkey box project here is too expensive due to the price increases.
But again if you have SET 3 whatts tube amps, forget it.
my 2 cents to open the talking.
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That’s a very good advice!
Thanks for this great information. I will check some drivers and see how it goes.
I just found out about this and it’s a serious contender vs the Faital. Needs more volume though.
@diyiggy thanks a lot for your comments. I think there are lots of good ideas packed in your post.
To sum up my thoughts; I don’t want to make a low sensitivity design. Or attenuate the horn so low that it’s not so different than using a shallow waveguide and dome tweeter. I do like the effortless presentation of efficient speakers.
Though I will use Hypex amp with DSP, I still think my speaker should align with physical constraints as much as possible. I will use a Tritonia like horn, depending on the woofer size and match the directivity as good as possible. Hence, 12 inch woofer crossed around where it starts to narrow is best in this design - that is around 800 Hz.
I can still look for a 10 inch, but with same principle, matching the directivity with the horn that I’ll use means crossing around 1100-1200 Hz. This I need to think because not only there will be a cross over around precious 1kHz, also the compression driver will be 1 inch (with 12 inch woofer, it’s 1.4 inch) so very different choice…
For the 3 way, with 12 inch it would be too big for my living room, but maybe with 10 inch subwoofer + midwoofer + horn is doable, it depends on the woofers and total volume (sealed mid is tempting!)
Thanks.
To sum up my thoughts; I don’t want to make a low sensitivity design. Or attenuate the horn so low that it’s not so different than using a shallow waveguide and dome tweeter. I do like the effortless presentation of efficient speakers.
Though I will use Hypex amp with DSP, I still think my speaker should align with physical constraints as much as possible. I will use a Tritonia like horn, depending on the woofer size and match the directivity as good as possible. Hence, 12 inch woofer crossed around where it starts to narrow is best in this design - that is around 800 Hz.
I can still look for a 10 inch, but with same principle, matching the directivity with the horn that I’ll use means crossing around 1100-1200 Hz. This I need to think because not only there will be a cross over around precious 1kHz, also the compression driver will be 1 inch (with 12 inch woofer, it’s 1.4 inch) so very different choice…
For the 3 way, with 12 inch it would be too big for my living room, but maybe with 10 inch subwoofer + midwoofer + horn is doable, it depends on the woofers and total volume (sealed mid is tempting!)
Thanks.
Some 1" going as low as 800 hz exist as you have dsp plate amps. Home environment makes this feasible. Most 10" will be too short in the low. 12" is the minimum for a 2 ways without too much hassle.
A pro 12" with a Fs around 45 hz is enough as your living room is not huge. Of course it asks vented as you planed. The 12RS430 will give you lower cut off at the cost of circa 3 to 4 dB loss. The SB34RNXL gives you even lower Fs, so permit vented or sealed with a boost, but at the cost of circa 90 db sensivity.
The 12PR320 seemss to clim well but has no demodulation ring...
Trade offs trade offs....
A pro 12" with a Fs around 45 hz is enough as your living room is not huge. Of course it asks vented as you planed. The 12RS430 will give you lower cut off at the cost of circa 3 to 4 dB loss. The SB34RNXL gives you even lower Fs, so permit vented or sealed with a boost, but at the cost of circa 90 db sensivity.
The 12PR320 seemss to clim well but has no demodulation ring...
Trade offs trade offs....
Hello @Cany89 ,
in the last few months there was a quite professional DIY audio magazine in Germany - HobbyHiFi from Bernd Timmermanns - with a couple of high sensivity speakers builds, he called the whole story "PA meets HiFI"
he claims that in listening tests there was no 1.4 horn driver horn combination good enough in the treble region
his recommendation with low cutoff about 1.5 kHz is the CDX1-1747 with the H1-9040P horn from Celestion
of course he left out the newer B&C 1.4 inch coaxial designs like this one
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxial_hf/1.4/8/DCX354
for him on the other hand there is no way to go under 1500 Hz with a 1 inch driver
hope it helps, Stefano
P.S.:
One of my best high sensivity builds was this here:
here i am fiddling around with an additional tweeter, even though i used one of the best available 1 inch driver horn combinations for a reasonable price
18sound NSD 1095N driver + XT1086 horn
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/NSD1095N.pdf
https://www.eighteensound.it/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMTkvMDcvMTkvMTBfNTVfNTFfNzQ4X1hUMTA4Ni5QREYiXV0
my problem was the quite high directivity index in the treble region, the small tractrix wood horn with only 110 mm horn mouth diameter is much less beaming than the much larger horn mouth of the XT1086 horn with the elliptical 250mm x 200mm mouth size
to check how a horn behaves with beamwidth and directivity on the frequency axis you may want to check out this one
https://celestion-horn.netlify.app/
here the example what the CDX1-1747 will do with the elliptical horn parameters of the XT1086 and the small circular wood horn
i have CLIO Pocket measurements - never seen a better transient response behaviour than the 18sound NSD1095N driver with the small wood horn above 2200 Hz
in the last few months there was a quite professional DIY audio magazine in Germany - HobbyHiFi from Bernd Timmermanns - with a couple of high sensivity speakers builds, he called the whole story "PA meets HiFI"
he claims that in listening tests there was no 1.4 horn driver horn combination good enough in the treble region
his recommendation with low cutoff about 1.5 kHz is the CDX1-1747 with the H1-9040P horn from Celestion
of course he left out the newer B&C 1.4 inch coaxial designs like this one
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxial_hf/1.4/8/DCX354
for him on the other hand there is no way to go under 1500 Hz with a 1 inch driver
hope it helps, Stefano
P.S.:
One of my best high sensivity builds was this here:
here i am fiddling around with an additional tweeter, even though i used one of the best available 1 inch driver horn combinations for a reasonable price
18sound NSD 1095N driver + XT1086 horn
https://www.eighteensound.it/en/products/hf-driver/1-0/8/NSD1095N.pdf
https://www.eighteensound.it/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMTkvMDcvMTkvMTBfNTVfNTFfNzQ4X1hUMTA4Ni5QREYiXV0
my problem was the quite high directivity index in the treble region, the small tractrix wood horn with only 110 mm horn mouth diameter is much less beaming than the much larger horn mouth of the XT1086 horn with the elliptical 250mm x 200mm mouth size
to check how a horn behaves with beamwidth and directivity on the frequency axis you may want to check out this one
https://celestion-horn.netlify.app/
here the example what the CDX1-1747 will do with the elliptical horn parameters of the XT1086 and the small circular wood horn
i have CLIO Pocket measurements - never seen a better transient response behaviour than the 18sound NSD1095N driver with the small wood horn above 2200 Hz
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I listened yesterday to a big speaker with 18" in a bottom 15" in front with 600hz crossed 2" into rather small square tractrix horn of 17" width. I could not escape the thought that the horn is too small and the resulting sound is too "dry " All drivers were FC variety and the assembly cost was in tens of thousands of $$ . If the system was mine I'd just stack on the top a humongous mid horn or direct radiating 10" with separate amp.
PS . The food and drinks were too good and hosts too wonderful to utter anything less than enthusiastic regarding the system 🙂)
PS . The food and drinks were too good and hosts too wonderful to utter anything less than enthusiastic regarding the system 🙂)