From the specs I feel like it can’t go low (I know I have DSP…) but I’ll check it in WinISD anyway.
I’m on the verge of adding another 12-inch for subbass 😂
If you don't mind the lower sensitivity and high price, you can always go with the Purify, it will have all the lower bass you want:
https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/purifi-ptt100x04-nab-02-10-aluminum-cone-woofer
https://hificompass.com/en/reviews/purifi-ptt100x04-nab-02-10-aluminum-cone-woofer
It's so low that it's better with a waveguide + dome tweeter than a horn (which is done 100 times here). Otherwise, that is a perfect driver.
It's so interesting that I couldn't find a 'so-called' high-end 12-inch woofer that goes below 40-45 Hz in a moderately sized box, and plays nicely to cross around 800 Hz. I wonder how JBL managed to make one with a whole octave higher crossover point and managed to keep extremely low distortion. I always thought that I would find a better driver than what JBL uses, given that I have easier requirements for my non-commercial project.
Given:
Unless you really need the high sensitivity, have you considered the Purify tweeter?
- https://ptt.purifi-audio.com/shop/ptt1-3t04-hag-01-ptt1-3t04-hag-01-wg104-2088
Have a look at the Purify tech data, you may find it interesting 🙂
- https://purifi-audio.com/blog/tech-notes-1
And more specifically:
- https://purifi-audio.com/blog/tech-notes-1/spk16-reference-design-12
Amplifier power is so good and cheap nowadays, that for home use, the Purify combo may be the best available high-end option right now.
Unless you really need the high sensitivity, have you considered the Purify tweeter?
- https://ptt.purifi-audio.com/shop/ptt1-3t04-hag-01-ptt1-3t04-hag-01-wg104-2088
Have a look at the Purify tech data, you may find it interesting 🙂
- https://purifi-audio.com/blog/tech-notes-1
And more specifically:
- https://purifi-audio.com/blog/tech-notes-1/spk16-reference-design-12
Amplifier power is so good and cheap nowadays, that for home use, the Purify combo may be the best available high-end option right now.
Thanks for all the info. I believe you are absolutely right. It would be a highend speaker if I just do that. Or even just buy a Radiant/Buchardt. But I want to build a two way horn speaker.
Funny, I can find many exceptional 6.5 and 8 inch, less 10 inch drivers, but not a 12 inch 😅
Even more interesting is when you can increase the box and woofer size, 15 inch woofers crossed around the same frequencies, do everything better (but you end up with 2 washing machines in the living room haha)
I've built a monster 3 way with:
As they are almost exclusively used for home cinema, the design goal was high sensitivity and great dynamics.
The final result is wonderfull, i'll use these speakers for decades, but i realized i only use a fraction of what they can do.
If it was today, i would probably build the speakers using the purify or bliesma drivers.
PS: i'm from Portugal too 🙂
As they are almost exclusively used for home cinema, the design goal was high sensitivity and great dynamics.
The final result is wonderfull, i'll use these speakers for decades, but i realized i only use a fraction of what they can do.
If it was today, i would probably build the speakers using the purify or bliesma drivers.
PS: i'm from Portugal too 🙂
Those 12" midwoofers are largely out of fashion. JBL still make them for their own speakers and Faital and Beyma make a few, but most companies don't as there is only a very small market segment that is interested in those. Most want small drivers that fit in small speakers or slim towers or big woofers that go loud but not so low for p.a purpose where subs are 18" or bigger (and don't go high).
Of what i know I would go with the Faital 12RS430, that is the best i know for reasonable prices and that is easely availeble. AE is better, but cost a lot and is not that easy to get in the EU. The PHL 4021 (found on THPL) also looks promising, but I never heared reviews (not objective nor subjective) about this driver. PHL is a very reputed OEM builder altough, working for Neumann and other known and rated brands but very hard to get outside the EU for DIY as THPL (France) is the only dealer.
Purifi is the more modern style, but is way less sensitive so harder to match to a compression driver in horn. It would indeed be better to use a dome tweeter in waveguide to match this driver.
Of what i know I would go with the Faital 12RS430, that is the best i know for reasonable prices and that is easely availeble. AE is better, but cost a lot and is not that easy to get in the EU. The PHL 4021 (found on THPL) also looks promising, but I never heared reviews (not objective nor subjective) about this driver. PHL is a very reputed OEM builder altough, working for Neumann and other known and rated brands but very hard to get outside the EU for DIY as THPL (France) is the only dealer.
Purifi is the more modern style, but is way less sensitive so harder to match to a compression driver in horn. It would indeed be better to use a dome tweeter in waveguide to match this driver.
AE TDxM has very optimistic Xmax numbers as the surround wont agree.
SB 10MWN600D?
15MWN700D? (Pics below).
SB 10MWN600D?
15MWN700D? (Pics below).
Not really, LSV in Germany fx.
Attachments
I like the JBL 2204H for the woofer. Right at 45Hz F3 in a 60L reflex enclosure. The 2204 has deeper Bass extension than the 2206H.
I also like the JBL PTH1010HF-1 wave guide with the JBL D2 compression driver.
I have this set up in my garage.
A JBL 2217H would also be nice. Also used on ebay.
Thanks DT
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-442730-001-pth1010hf-1-waveguide/
Inspired by the Days of Zilch RIP.
I also like the JBL PTH1010HF-1 wave guide with the JBL D2 compression driver.
I have this set up in my garage.
A JBL 2217H would also be nice. Also used on ebay.
Thanks DT
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-442730-001-pth1010hf-1-waveguide/
2204H Information - JBL Professional I bought mine used on ebay
Inspired by the Days of Zilch RIP.
What a great project! I always thought about AE TD12S as my woofer when I started to think about this project, but I couldn't pull the trigger because I couldn't find good measurements of it. How are your TD12M's THD measurements? I may ask.
Olá
That's one fine speaker! (and its sibling, 2-way bookshelf)
Sounds good. For me, the starting point is doing something better than JBL. It's really hard to beat them with their own drivers (I'm no engineer and got no Harman group on my back...) But I suspect it's relatively easy to get an amazing big sound using JBL. So this is also a legit approach. Good luck with your speakers 🙂
P.S.: I'm a die hard fan of D2 drivers. They sound amazing.
That's a bummer. I really like these mid-sized speakers, between a washing machine and a small standmounter with a good ol' 12-inch driver... Certainly has its merits.
Thanks for the insights, I think I'm pretty sold on Faital 12RS430, as there are no other reliable options. I'm very afraid of its THD measurements though. Most I can do is buy one and measure it...
For the AE, I can't justify the price without measurements. And PHL, I'll look into it, maybe I can find more info.
That's exactly what I'm thinking. Better with a dome tweeter due to low sensitivity. Kills the purpose of using horn (Having watt available doesn't mean they play nice together...)
You can check a comparison with some known 12" models here:
- https://www.facebook.com/aespeakers...ference-yesthis-is-a-quest/10153778505096866/
And the full driver vault data can be found using Wayback Machine:
- https://web.archive.org/web/2020103...vault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se
Not so fast at dismissing Horns / Waveguides.
One of the first reasons for selecting a wave guide is controlled dispersion.
Another reason is lower crossover frequencies at lower distortion.
Thanks DT
Thanks a lot for these.
Boy! AE smokes the old Faital.
I really started to worry about RS430's THD.
This is again TD12M. I wonder how it's different from TD12S, but in any case, the THD is below -60 dB on most frequencies, and that's 0.1%!
I don't know how much THD is too much, but 1-2% vs. 0.1% tells a lot.
Not dismissing it, but I set sail to use a compression driver with a horn, not a shallow waveguide with a dome tweeter. Although I admit, overall, it might be even better objectively for a midfield + small room. Just not what I'm trying to do.
As mr Geddes alluded to, was mentioned several times in the Ariel thread. The AE's have som anomalies that should not be in a well designed driver.
https://data-bass.com/drivers/5bad437ede9a7500041b91e5
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/lambda-acoustics/lambda-acoustics-td15x-apollo
https://data-bass.com/drivers/5bad437ede9a7500041b91e5
https://hificompass.com/en/speakers/measurements/lambda-acoustics/lambda-acoustics-td15x-apollo