Please describe the goals realized with those horns-and which horns in particular. And is your room much larger than ~ 3100 cu ft?
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Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of good horn designs out there, I have heard, liked and used a few. But at some point, not too long ago, I realized that multi-cell do what I like so well in so many situations, that there was no reason for me to pursue other horn types.
I do still like reading about different horn types, though.
I do still like reading about different horn types, though.
The goals are several, I'll try to explain.
- Wide, even coverage - of course.
- A lack of horn sound
- No obvious sound source, I.E. not glued to the horn itself
- Large as life sound
- Imaging. Does it sound like real people, playing real instruments in real space?
- Height. Does the soundscape stay the same height, or change with the recording?
- 3D sounds. Do people and instruments seem to have the proper shape and weight, or are they just dimensionless ethereal sounds?
Bigger rooms are better, but I find that true for many speakers, especially big ones. I have used multicell horns in rooms as small as 4000 cubic feet to outdoor amphitheaters. They give me the same benefits, just more of them in a bigger space. Probably the best results I remember where in spaces about 14,000 cubic feet, but a lot of speakers sound good in that big a room. If I were in a very small room, I would still use multicell, like the beautiful little 1" Pioneer wooden horns that I did not buy. 🙁
I have a triangular ceiling that peaks at 11 ft, but room is only 23 ft long x 11 ft wide, where the width crosses a 3.5 ft hallway into a ~ 9 ft x 10 kitchen.
A horn like this? https://alg-audiodesign.com/pavillon-15-737/ Too wide for my 2 ft Altec 416 cabinets?
My builder, Troy Crowe, whose patience I may be sorely testing, has only these:
A concept horn. https://josephcrowe.com/products/beta-horn-no-1929-exponential-spiral-multicell
An actual model, which may or may not work with my cabinets. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/testing-various-multicell-designs
And scroll down to the next to last photo. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/speaker-system-no-2800
Is this kind of horn you mean? If yes, what kind of driver for a two-way? JBL2450J ? Beryllium, if I can afford those diaphragms?
A horn like this? https://alg-audiodesign.com/pavillon-15-737/ Too wide for my 2 ft Altec 416 cabinets?
My builder, Troy Crowe, whose patience I may be sorely testing, has only these:
A concept horn. https://josephcrowe.com/products/beta-horn-no-1929-exponential-spiral-multicell
An actual model, which may or may not work with my cabinets. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/testing-various-multicell-designs
And scroll down to the next to last photo. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/speaker-system-no-2800
Is this kind of horn you mean? If yes, what kind of driver for a two-way? JBL2450J ? Beryllium, if I can afford those diaphragms?
How would rate these off-axis and directivity plots?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/1929_Power_DI_480x480.png?v=1735940132
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/1929_Directivity_hor_480x480.png?v=1735940182
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/2567_Power_DI_480x480.png?v=1735938766
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/2567_Directivity_hor_480x480.png?v=1735938812
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/1929_Power_DI_480x480.png?v=1735940132
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/1929_Directivity_hor_480x480.png?v=1735940182
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/2567_Power_DI_480x480.png?v=1735938766
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0142/2848/8292/files/2567_Directivity_hor_480x480.png?v=1735938812
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But how much might the "banding" in those directivity plots be due to edge diffraction? And could that have been reduced if the horn edges were rolled back-or if felt padding were added?
Hard to say without seeing the horns.
If the horn edges were sharp, and the irregularities were due to that, padding the edges would reduce them.
Regarding the well damped, large multicell horns that Pano prefers, please don't equate them to the ringy-dingy Altec 811B sectoral exponential horn.
Your AH425/Radian driver combination were specifically designed with enough round over to avoid diffraction problems.
The AH425 is also probably inert enough to not need additional damping to reduce ringing.
If you want to get an idea of the multi-cell sound, put the pair of your AH425 together, drivers near each other, and fill in the area between with some padding over cardboard represented in red below :
You will find an angle where the HF horizontal response becomes fairly even between the center axis and on axis to either "cell", probably near the angle where you no longer can see the throat of either driver.
Community Light and Sound's fiberglass high frequency multi-cell horns from the 1970's are an example of that round to rectangular cell approach:
Bruce Howze made sure Community offered a horn to fit almost any dispersion pattern one might desire.
Art
Also ring-a-ding-dingy? https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/...ec-805b-multicell?_pos=1&_sid=84164bf01&_ss=r
and this? https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/testing-various-multicell-designs
Again, sadly, I'm not set up to do any DIY experimenting in my apartment, and my day job leaves me no time in any case. There's no one I know with any multicell speakers. I wish Troy Crowe had more done more experimenting with some of the readily available multicell models which you and Pano would recommend for my room and my midwoofers. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed?_pos=8&_sid=695436985&_ss=r
Compare the decay time and you will have an answer.
You own two horn cells, so you know at least one person with a multicell speaker.
If you don't listen to your horns, you will never know what they sound like.
Looking at charts and asking questions is a poor substitute for listening.
I won't speak for Pano, but I never have recommended you use a multicell rather than the horns and drivers you own, but evidently still have never listened to.
Months after your horn purchase, you still have no audible point of reference to compare them to anything.
Art
Yes, oltos' LeCleach horns should sound good enough to be near a standard of quality when voiced properly. Their directivity does change but it does this in the smoothest way.
I never heard a LeCleach horn unfortunately. The design seems to be doing all the right stuff, like an Iwata horn taken further.
Burst waterfall plot shows stored energy 5k to 7kHz and again around 15 to 17kHz. Quite ringy, I would think.
I've explained that I'm not equipped to test them on my own, or I surely would. Two US based members here have recently completed builds with 425 horns, but during chats did not seem inclined to invite me to hear them.
If only Gary Dahl wasn't 3K miles away-his 425/Yamaha 6681B are atop the originals of my midwoofer clones! The Yamahas only do out to ~ 10kHz but I know Gary's very pleased with their tonality. What amazed me is that he also uses these horns for home theater. https://galibierdesign.com/wa-trip-01/ I don't know what A/V content he typically plays, but if it's often DVD and BD movies, I wonder what his phantom center channel sounds like-especially since his speakers are placed that far apart, though toed in, across that huge screen. Of course, my main use for this build, of whatever horn/driver combination, would be for music, as I'm sure it is with Gary, being a music teacher and an orchestral conductor. IIRC, his room is ~ 15 ft x 18 but empties into a larger room. Slanted ceiling peaks at 12 ft.
Gary invited me long ago but I am incapable of flying that distance, round trip or not. I've only flown twice in my life, and the last time only 1/3 that distance. It's all just so much bad luck. Aside from the VOTTs in local cinemas long ago, I've only heard horn speakers twice. Joe Bolger's (youtube) in Brooklyn, a quick train ride away. And Pete Grzybowski's Volti speakers with Border Patrol amps https://voltiaudio.com/newsletter/NL29.shtml at his home; a 20 minute drive to Massapequa.
What must also be so cool about Pano's multicells is the vertical off-axis response. Like full range ESLs, he can probably enjoy them as much standing up as when seated, while having excellent lateral off-axis response and superior dynamics. Don't think I would get all of that with the 425s, with their smooth but relatively narrow directivity. Maybe with the AH300s.
Really no multicell horns either of you can recommend?
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Consider these off-axis and Geddes plots
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/testing-various-multicell-designs , which might explain why that horn is apparently experimental and not for yet available for system building. But could great sounding mulitcells like Pano's also produce less than numerically desirable directivity plots? If yes, why might this be?
Because generating accurate plots of multicells is somehow much more difficult?
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/testing-various-multicell-designs , which might explain why that horn is apparently experimental and not for yet available for system building. But could great sounding mulitcells like Pano's also produce less than numerically desirable directivity plots? If yes, why might this be?
Because generating accurate plots of multicells is somehow much more difficult?
I have suggested listening to your horns, not testing them.
The only equipment needed to listen to your horns are your ears.
Electrostatic panels generally have terribly inconsistent polar patterns- you won't find any manufacturers publishing them.
One of the better in regard to lateral off-axis response, the ER Audio ESL Panel (Version 4) is probably more "beamy" than your horns, and has "fingering" (alternately narrow/wide) all through the midrange from 700 to 5kHz.
Your horns won't have that "fingering" problem.
Multi-cell horns can be built for nearly any dispersion pattern required, but will have some degree of "fingering"-it is an unavoidable trait of using multiple sources.
One can only determine if that particular issue is of importance listening in one's own environment.
Pano (and I) like the old tar-dampened Altec multi-cell horns:
I might prefer the Community or other multi cells, but never heard them.
I haven't listened carefully to a multicell in ~42 years, and with my present hearing condition probably wouldn't even notice the fingering problem that bothered me back then.
I wouldn't choose any of the Altec multicells over your horns for my particular listening environment and hearing condition.
I wouldn't recommend any other horn to someone who has not listened to the ones he owns.
Art
If you're over fifty and I suspect that you're likely to be and your prime in most regards is gone you may like " vulgarity " of untamed Altec 811/511 above all others. PA Altec crossover filter will guarantee this. I've never heard more realistic electric guitars from any spherical abominations 🙂 just pure blood . Art is absolutely right . Forget waterfalls, polars and other graphics hook up the horns and listen. You may actually discover that yore not so special at all and like what everybody else likes.
You can train yoga for remaining of your life but you won't be able to make a speakers with available technology playing everything on the level you expect. This will have to wait for Alien ship coming to earth and making a gift to Diy community.
You can train yoga for remaining of your life but you won't be able to make a speakers with available technology playing everything on the level you expect. This will have to wait for Alien ship coming to earth and making a gift to Diy community.
?? Which is what?? Wouldn't that strongly imply that there would have to be next to no variations in speaker design? The reality is of course very much the opposite. There must be close to a dozen if not far more different speaker technologies developed since the 1930s, and countless variations among actual builds using same and more recently invented ones since then. And I would think that is so because everybody does not necessarily want the same sonic experience from their speakers, as you claim.
And except for my age, you're also wrong about the kind of sound I am seeking from speakers. Did I ever disclose this? No. All I've done here is ask people about the design of their speakers, some comparative measurements with other horn/driver combinations and about their listening impressions of their speakers, and versus others they may have heard.
I think these are valid questions though no doubt due to my limited by growing knowledge of speaker design and room acoustics, both and especially the latter made more understandable thanks particularly to these readings. https://acousticfrontiers.com/blogs/articles And sadly also due to my inability to travel long distances to hear and compare the above discussed horn speaker designs-or for any reason. That's a very serious handicap as actual listening sessions would likely yield quick and accurate assessments of what kind of sound I generally prefer.
So, count yourself very fortunate if you're an able DIYer (I can't seem to convince Art that I'm not) and/or can hop a plane-or spend days round trip via Amtrak-traveling practically anywhere you need to in North America.
In my case, my final choice of a horn/driver combination will still end up being based on maybe one or two decent hunches and the rest all guesswork.
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But isn't that also true of this biradial horn?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...BMS_4591-8_off-axis3_480x480.png?v=1649504045
And yet in what respects would this biradial horn not provide exceptionally good performance?
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/bms-4591-with-horn-no-1670