Ok, show me a single modern 1" compression driver that has objectively improved upon the technical performance of the TAD TD-2001 (first designed in 1978*).
I'll wait...
* Kinoshita and Locanthi, 1978. "Design of 48mm Beryllium compression driver", 60th Convention of the AES, Los Angeles (USA).
You can attenuate the CD using an autotrasformer + shunt resistor. Almost zero ohms in series. Problem solved.
Ah, there it is. Price/performance.
You see? In many sectors, progress is often aimed at achieving performance that is almost (though often not quite) as good as some previously developed "gold standard", at a fraction of the cost of the latter.
What this results in, is typically a "sawtooth" trend whereby some truly exceptional cost-no-object product is designed at some point in time, and then, over the following decades, the industry plays catch-up by trying to get away with saving as much money as possible and cutting as many corners as possible, while still approaching the performance of that original cost-no-object product (which is often still technically the best).
In addition to that, design priorities also change. Modern CD are designed to withstand abuse/high power first and foremost, and also to be used >1kHz (if not >2kHz). Those design goals are in open contradition to seeking the best and most refined technical performance across a wide bandwith.
Again, let's see a modern 1" CD that, when paired with a suitably large horn, can play music at medium SPLs over 5 octaves (650Hz-20kHz) with such low levels of distortion and clean impulse response as the TAD TD-2001...
Not holding my breath.
Rub and Buzz is the term for measurements of unharmonic noises.
But I just did THD measurements at different levels and classics like 18Sound 8nmb420 are pretty bad at low levels (but fine at high levels).
In comparison your beloved ScanSpeaks 😎
PHL or Kartesian can do low THD and high level at once.
And no - magnetic structures can not be over engineered. Every little improvement is welcome.
This comparison isn't about size. It's about price-performance ratio.
If you're paying $350 for a 6.5" woofer, you'd expect superior performance and consistency at the very least.
And while it's obviously not a bad product, it certainly isn't head and shoulders above much more reasonably priced products from brands such as Tymphany.
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The 18Sound has clearly been developed with PA use in mind, for which mechanical and thermal aspects at prolonged high output levels are (far) more important than for hi-fi drivers.
The question remains to what extent a marginally lower THD makes a substantial difference in the listening experience.
My experience with expensive/exotic hi-fi drivers (Scan-Speak, SEAS etc.) has only fueled the desire for relatively simple, but logical solutions (in accordance with Hofmann's Iron Law, among others).
My focus is first and foremost on efficiency and then on other characteristics.
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GIP Lab 555 replica? Is that modern? LOL
I was talking to a very cool dude, and quite well know in audio circles and he doesn't like the TAD 2001-4001. He seems to think frequencies above 13kHz are fake resonances and not part real musical program.
After spending almost 4hr listening to actual music l am am almost sold on the idea.
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Hi marco, hi all,
enjoying the comments...albeit i don't have enough experience with different CDs to do anything but observe and mull...
I'd surely love to have a good TAD to try out...
Out of sheer curiosity, what is your take on the harmonic performance of the below ?
It's not a 1" however, it's a BMS 1.4" 4594he on a XT1464 horn. EQ'ed of course.
(Speaker is a PA build using horn loaded 12"s MTM around the CD/horn.....that works super for home audio too, imo)
Crossover to CD is at 650Hz...85 dB is kinda medium SPl, I think..
Looks really clean to me...but maybe not in comparison to best TAD ????
No, those are copies of obsolete technology, for nostalgia's sake. Not competitive.
I've listened to them many times.
That may be partially true for the 4001, due to the surround resonance. Improved in the 4003. Not an issue with the 2001 or 2002, IMO.
I don't know about 'non competitive' and 'nostalgia'...🤔 the Silbatone room had the best sound in the show, once again. No other room drew applause at the end of each track. You could hear jaws dropping and people were in tears, the vibe was palpable.
I personally love everything TAD but I have to say the 2001/2 definitely need much better horns than where people put them. I heard 3 speakers that used TAD drivers the results were disappointing.
I personally love everything TAD but I have to say the 2001/2 definitely need much better horns than where people put them. I heard 3 speakers that used TAD drivers the results were disappointing.
My goal is always to have detailed, natural and resonance free reproduction with good dynamics and full range reproduction. And no - a 6"/1" can not do that ;-), it starts with 4x10" for me.
You restrict yourself a lot with your only rule - efficiency! That was a good guide 20 years ago - technology developed a lot in the last 10 years, thanks to Klippel and high quality DSP.
These PA drivers would be rated high in a comparison - but sound way worse as the ScanSpeak for the level needed 90%. Higher THD by the factor 10 and not scaling properly with level ... is an indicator that there is something going on what you don't want to. It doesn't tell you WHAT is going on but is a red flag.
And there are drivers which also rate high with a PA Background - and sound great and still can take a lot of power. Efficiency tells you nothing about that.
These modern motor designs are made to linearise exactly the behaviour you want to avoid with efficiency. And they are able to do so. At all levels - low and high. At times of Hofmanns Iron Law these where not available.
The application sets the parameters and you need to find the right solution. I like to use Bass Arrays as it's the best room integration - and THAT'S the most important thing at low frequencies. So I need 6 subwoofers which I can distribute to the front wall and somtimes also at the back wall and they need to go to 25Hz in a closed volume with some EQing. This is not doable with 18" woofers in big volumes most of the time. There are very good 10-12" chassis out there for about 150-300,- which take this task perfectly (ScanSpeak is still often a little better - but for double the price I'm happy with the other stuff. And there are some Gems like SB34MRXL75-8 - good price, ScanSpeak performance)
And yes, there is also a lot of "fashion" with these new drivers. New materials, new look, new whatever. But a 6" low mid driver is always a compromise - no matter the price! As people want to buy this ... things ... they try to make them at least a little better.
But that's a problem with concept and marketing. The driver itself is for sure pretty great! (You need to measure THD in a log scale with a low noise mic and environment btw)
That the last few % of performance cost you should not be a problem in a thread where we talk about TAD drivers 😎
"Think"?
That would be very easy to measure, a 5min task. These domes show their breakups. Why spread speculations?
Remembers me to these old B&C 2" PA drivers everybody used in big PAs in my beginning times (JBL was not better for the people on the other side of the pond ;-)). >8-10kHz where only membrane resonances but still a lot of level - nobody cared.
So I used the BMS Coax driver ... and there was information again in these high frequency signals.
I was there too (Munich High End 2023), and thought the sound was NOT neutral - coloured and ridden with resonances.
"Vintage" in the non-flattering sense.
I guess we'll just leave it there.
Hi mark100:
Love your previous sharing on DCX464 with XT1464 horn. The directivity control seems perfect on this combo.
Is the 4594HE your final choice over DCX464?
How do they compare? Thanks!
No worries.🙂
To get a calibration curve: what was you fav room? Did you hear the cessaro , JM (or whatever at the marriott) and the other red one that used TAD drivers? What did you think of them?
Have you by any chance listened to the Iconics?I don't know about 'non competitive' and 'nostalgia'...🤔 the Silbatone room had the best sound in the show, once again. No other room drew applause at the end of each track. You could hear jaws dropping and people were in tears, the vibe was palpable.
Cessaro... not good. Lacking integration.
JMF... I was expecting better.
The other red ones... better, but still room for improvement.
Bottom line, I 100% agree that just using TAD drivers is no guarantee of good results. Many factors at play.
Favourite room... probably the small booth with the Taiwanese LALS speakers (which looked like TAD 2402 knockoffs, but with their own woofers and 1" drivers...)
The Magico room also sounded good, I must admit. As did one of the Wilson Audio rooms.
Then, the Audio Note JP room with the vintage Jensen speakers did something very right on some music (e.g. Art Pepper's "You'd be so nice to come home to")... but then it disappointed on other tracks.