Here is some information on power, I have left out the name of the company. I think some of you will find real technical data here, and some will not like it at all. But that is ok, we are here because we like to DIY audio and something below might make our system sound better, and we want good sound right?
“Before we produced our first power cord, we did extensive testing of the audible effects of a variety of devices and materials associated with power transmission. We created many jigs and test apparatus that allowed us to test wire types, dielectric materials, connector contacts, dampening materials and a variety of transformers, chokes, coils, ferrites, capacitors, triacs and diacs. After 3 years of testing, we concluded that just about anything and everything that is inserted in or around the electromagnetic field of a power circuit has an audible effect. Some of the effects are quite small and are relatively insignificant. Others are dramatically profound and sometimes surprising in their behavior. Obviously we are not going to "give away the farm" and discuss all of our findings, but there are some very basic observations that I can share with you.
"First would be that wire type and size in a power cord is highly overrated. Every wire type (I am talking about the metal itself) has a specific sonic characteristic. Silver, copper, brass, gold and others all "sound" different. The difference in sound is not related to conductivity capacity because we adjusted the sizes during testing to account for this. Each of the metal's inherent "sonics" can be ameliorated by careful adjustment of the other materials used in the construction of the final cable. We have a warehouse full of various prototype cables that never made it to production. Some of these use a relatively small wire size of ~18ga, that sounds surprising full in the bass. Intuitively, you might think that a small wire would sound thin in the bass region. This is not always the case. Conversely, we have some cables with wire as large as 1gauge that sound powerful in the bass but are also flabby and irregular sounding. So, just increasing the wire size is not the easy answer that some might think.
"Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing. Furthermore, there are no perfect components and there are no perfect parts. Everything is relative and the designer must weigh the sonic value of each part when designing a product. Our philosophy is to create a product that is a faithful musical component as opposed to striving for excellence in any single performance area.
"Our tests with coils and chokes indicate that (in general, with exceptions) that any coil or choke that is placed in-line with the power circuit is harmful to dynamics. Many of them will also induce a subtle smearing or blurring of transients. This is naturally dependent upon the power supply design of the unit that the coil is used with. Coils and chokes are necessary in most components and I prefer "single layer wound" types such as the foil designs. Cost of production will always mitigate against the use of these types of coils due to the expense. We definitely do not believe in placing coils or capacitors within a power cable. These devices belong in the component or in a dedicated power conditioner.
"Many components use a power inlet IEC that has an integrated "L" or "pi" filter. The quality of these devices varies dramatically. Generally speaking, the more capacitors and inductors that you have in a circuit, the more complex the dynamic interactions will be between the devices. This will also make the component they are used in more reactive and the possibility of negative sonic effects increase. Multiple filter networks can resonate and generate unintended results that have subtle but audible ringing / pinging sounds. Many of these IEC packages were created for office and computer products and are required to pass certification tests for EMI emissions. All I can say is that what is good for a fax machine is not necessarily good for a pre-amplifier.
"Shielding can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, it can reduce radiated fields from impacting other components. On the other hand, the shielding may induce re-radiated fields onto the cable or component that it is being used in. Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.”
“Before we produced our first power cord, we did extensive testing of the audible effects of a variety of devices and materials associated with power transmission. We created many jigs and test apparatus that allowed us to test wire types, dielectric materials, connector contacts, dampening materials and a variety of transformers, chokes, coils, ferrites, capacitors, triacs and diacs. After 3 years of testing, we concluded that just about anything and everything that is inserted in or around the electromagnetic field of a power circuit has an audible effect. Some of the effects are quite small and are relatively insignificant. Others are dramatically profound and sometimes surprising in their behavior. Obviously we are not going to "give away the farm" and discuss all of our findings, but there are some very basic observations that I can share with you.
"First would be that wire type and size in a power cord is highly overrated. Every wire type (I am talking about the metal itself) has a specific sonic characteristic. Silver, copper, brass, gold and others all "sound" different. The difference in sound is not related to conductivity capacity because we adjusted the sizes during testing to account for this. Each of the metal's inherent "sonics" can be ameliorated by careful adjustment of the other materials used in the construction of the final cable. We have a warehouse full of various prototype cables that never made it to production. Some of these use a relatively small wire size of ~18ga, that sounds surprising full in the bass. Intuitively, you might think that a small wire would sound thin in the bass region. This is not always the case. Conversely, we have some cables with wire as large as 1gauge that sound powerful in the bass but are also flabby and irregular sounding. So, just increasing the wire size is not the easy answer that some might think.
"Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing. Furthermore, there are no perfect components and there are no perfect parts. Everything is relative and the designer must weigh the sonic value of each part when designing a product. Our philosophy is to create a product that is a faithful musical component as opposed to striving for excellence in any single performance area.
"Our tests with coils and chokes indicate that (in general, with exceptions) that any coil or choke that is placed in-line with the power circuit is harmful to dynamics. Many of them will also induce a subtle smearing or blurring of transients. This is naturally dependent upon the power supply design of the unit that the coil is used with. Coils and chokes are necessary in most components and I prefer "single layer wound" types such as the foil designs. Cost of production will always mitigate against the use of these types of coils due to the expense. We definitely do not believe in placing coils or capacitors within a power cable. These devices belong in the component or in a dedicated power conditioner.
"Many components use a power inlet IEC that has an integrated "L" or "pi" filter. The quality of these devices varies dramatically. Generally speaking, the more capacitors and inductors that you have in a circuit, the more complex the dynamic interactions will be between the devices. This will also make the component they are used in more reactive and the possibility of negative sonic effects increase. Multiple filter networks can resonate and generate unintended results that have subtle but audible ringing / pinging sounds. Many of these IEC packages were created for office and computer products and are required to pass certification tests for EMI emissions. All I can say is that what is good for a fax machine is not necessarily good for a pre-amplifier.
"Shielding can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, it can reduce radiated fields from impacting other components. On the other hand, the shielding may induce re-radiated fields onto the cable or component that it is being used in. Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.”
Let me take a wild guess about the brain behind this real-technical-data-masterpiece...Caelin Gabriel, Shunyata Research Inc.?
Rick,
Most of the cables you will find are not ideal, even from an audiophile perspective. Just because they sound different, doesn't necessarily mean 'better.' Sometimes different tends to sound better at first, but after repeated listening and comparisons it doesn't turn out to be better after all. Other times people use cables, capacitors, etc., as bandaids to compensate for other problems. In such cases its almost always best to identify and fix the real problems. What I'm trying to tell you is that you may be a little too trusting, and or maybe a little too quick to decide what is better. Just trying to warn you is all, not meant to be disrespectful.
Most of the cables you will find are not ideal, even from an audiophile perspective. Just because they sound different, doesn't necessarily mean 'better.' Sometimes different tends to sound better at first, but after repeated listening and comparisons it doesn't turn out to be better after all. Other times people use cables, capacitors, etc., as bandaids to compensate for other problems. In such cases its almost always best to identify and fix the real problems. What I'm trying to tell you is that you may be a little too trusting, and or maybe a little too quick to decide what is better. Just trying to warn you is all, not meant to be disrespectful.
Thanks for your comment Mark, I know what you mean about a change sounding good at first and not so good in the long run. I respect you and your message.
Actual technical information would have been a good thing. I see lots of "everything affects it...., we listened rigorously, trust us, we sell it, can't tell you how we know." standard ad prose with no actual content. I can understand not "giving away the ship", but this does nothing for me.
He did however mention shielding as a "two edged sword". I suspect his knowledge on that is consistent with the floobydust ad prose on the entire batch of verbage.
(caution, actual engineering discussion to follow)
I use Renishaw position encoders, BISS-C protocol, on 100 foot cables. The manu specifies a double shield cable to protect the signal cable. One shield is used to ground at both ends, the second is a faraday, connected only at one end. The grounded shield is to carry stray currents OVER the signal bundle, as there is NO magnetic field generated within a cylindrical conductive construct (coax cable shield currents create NO magnetic field inside the shield.). Signals are safe from any ground currents. The faraday is for e-field protection. Edit: we use 1 nanometer resolution encoders, I will not let them buy 5 or 10 nanometer crap... When I first got involved, I could not believe encoders could go that low...holy mackeral. Old dog, new tricks..well, learned something at least..
Problem is, that double shielding premise only works when you have ONE cable from source to receiver, Our devices have 6 or 8 encoders at the device. When the second device cable shield carries noise current, the shield's magnetic field will couple to the first cable. Suddenly, the two shield scenario becomes useless.
This ad prose tells me nothing about the knowledge of the writer, nor if actual technical knowledge is present at the company.
I do not know who it is, nor do I care. I just find nothing of value within the prose. Their product may be randomly better or randomly worse, no matter.
John
WHY put the cart before the horses?
WHY worry about dirty Mains?
WHY share your Mains with everybody else, miles around?
Would you share your toothbrush with others? .... same thing.
Go to the source of the problem, do not WASTE time with bandaids such as power conditioners, wonder power cables, etc.
Here´s THE TRUTH.
Even better, SCIENTIFIC Truth, the best there is.
Would you compare any plain vanilla "Engineer" to THE MAN: Nikola Tesla himself? 😱
Enjoy this short video and LEARN.
https://go.todaysgreenlivingtips.co...KPpVdC7Sb0W2Qtyi55zGzTRav6IrmMHhoC4kYQAvD_BwE
CLEAN Energy at last.
So clean it does not need an y further cleaning by any device or cable, no matter how much Fairy Dust it contains.
WHY worry about dirty Mains?
WHY share your Mains with everybody else, miles around?
Would you share your toothbrush with others? .... same thing.
Go to the source of the problem, do not WASTE time with bandaids such as power conditioners, wonder power cables, etc.
Here´s THE TRUTH.
Even better, SCIENTIFIC Truth, the best there is.
Would you compare any plain vanilla "Engineer" to THE MAN: Nikola Tesla himself? 😱
Enjoy this short video and LEARN.
https://go.todaysgreenlivingtips.co...KPpVdC7Sb0W2Qtyi55zGzTRav6IrmMHhoC4kYQAvD_BwE
CLEAN Energy at last.
So clean it does not need an y further cleaning by any device or cable, no matter how much Fairy Dust it contains.
Well, Nikki Tesla was the guy, if he hadn't stopped, would have polluted the planet with so much EMI that telephone and radio could never have been practical. "Audio" would be very difficult; and would not have grown quickly from telephony but be buried in heavy boxes against Tesla's power waves.
Thanks JMFahey for pointing THE THRUTH out!
I'm happy to report that the Ultimate Energizer Guide instantly saved me money...about $259 ($49 The Guide and about $210 in parts).
Hah, I should not buy it more often.
I'm happy to report that the Ultimate Energizer Guide instantly saved me money...about $259 ($49 The Guide and about $210 in parts).
Hah, I should not buy it more often.
Presume we are talking about an ideal shield, not a 90% braided shield or some other non-ideality?
EDIT: Then the Faraday shield is to prevent or suppress mode conversion?
Last edited:
Useless, or difficult and or expensive to deal with? Can't you separate the cables or something?
Come on, judging a post which is addressed to non-technical people as being 'non-technical' is what? A truism which makes you feel good?
'Ideal' cables and 'ideal' shields for other fields, OK with that, but do you think this is the kind of cable and shield 90% of consumer gear is inter-linked by?
When I was working on my USB isolation connector - which used to be a simple printer cable I dissected, re-organised the geometry of as a test (didn't think it would make any difference), then added circuitry around - I did tests on the shield configurations, with switches. This allowed me to test several combinations of the shield and pick the best one.
Don't tell me you've never heard of noise induced by shields. That would be hard to believe. There are technical articles if you care to look.
'Ideal' cables and 'ideal' shields for other fields, OK with that, but do you think this is the kind of cable and shield 90% of consumer gear is inter-linked by?
When I was working on my USB isolation connector - which used to be a simple printer cable I dissected, re-organised the geometry of as a test (didn't think it would make any difference), then added circuitry around - I did tests on the shield configurations, with switches. This allowed me to test several combinations of the shield and pick the best one.
Don't tell me you've never heard of noise induced by shields. That would be hard to believe. There are technical articles if you care to look.
No. So, why would someone lecture Rick Miller on not being technical, berate someone else's knowledge of shields, then go ahead with a technically kinda superficial example?
Because .... this is a "Cable thread?"
Who can take anything posted here seriously? 😉
Who can take anything posted here seriously? 😉
The texture of the generated magnet. The further apart the current carrying conductors are, the farther the field will splay out. If the wires are an inch apart, the magnetic field will extend to almost 5 inches out. (measurable). Once you get away from the shield texture into the cable, the cancellation of all the shield wire fields is quite good. So shield currents don't couple well at all.
For my example, all the cables are in cable trays. So no, wide separation is not possible. The manufacturer specifies a shielding method that works really well for individual units, but the science of the shielding falls apart when multiple units are put together. Then you have to consider other options.
John
A good scientist has to be able to communicate what they do to the public. Everybody here has been in a lecture where the speaker was going into so much detail that the audience was lost. So, I do not give a get out of jail free card just because the audience was non technical.
Nor will I accept technical floobydust nonsense because the writer is "writing to a non technical audience".
Bringing into a partially technical discussion, a non technical blurb such as that serves no useful purpose. I did point out however, that his comment about shielding was absolutely accurate.
I deal with shield noise all the time, it's part of the game with wildly diverse scientific equipment all packed in the same building, using trays to go from electronics to load. Sometimes, it's noise current on it's shield, sometimes its current on other shields in the area, sometimes it's noise induced by the wires cable's physical motion in the earth's magnetic field (1/2 gauss is a typical value, sometimes enhanced by the building steel). Or even physical motion in the magnet field of the magnetized rebar in the concrete because we ran huge magnets on the floor. Oh, and dont forget the building steel, most of the grounding wires are carrying 40 to 50 mA of current into the cement of the foundation. Mostly 60 hz, but also lots of harmonics at 120 hz and out past 720 hz.
Your example of the USB connector is a good example of trying to figure out who the aggressor is, who the victim is, and using guile to try and eliminate the coupling method. It's great you got a result you liked.
jn
Last edited:
I seem to have missed someone lecturing Rick on not being technical.
If you are speaking about my saying that a shield cannot eliminate the characteristic impedance of a line cord, I welcome an alternative explanation that fits E/M field theory.
Double shielding is certainly not a superficial example. it is a well known tried and true method used in a large variety of applications. I pointed out that the method is optimized for a single device/wire combo, and when multiple (8 in one of my cases) cables are put together, the method no longer works as expected.
It's all about control of where the current is going.
jn
They had a demo at the Boston Museum of Science, two tesla coils, one about 4 inches diameter secondary, one about 18 inched diameter. The baby one gave off a nice sounding trill, the second one when turned on caused half the audience to jump a foot off the ground from the sound blast.
The tower he was building, holy mackeral that would have been incredibly loud.
The primary coils he made used an insulation material that is a real problem. They are trying to open the facility to the public, but the hazardous nature of the insulation has apparently been a significant hurdle. I'm not sure what they are doing about it, but it's been years since they fixed up the front yard of the property. It looks like they've fixed some of the building, looks painted. My friend was mentioning I might want to volunteer with the work, not sure what I'd do.
jn
Nothing is worse for the lecturer to be shot down by some old chrone -- my wife was at an American Cancer Research conference in Anaheim and some recently minted PhD claimed "discovery" -- her lab partner chimed in "We wrote that up in 1973, citing the pub and her coauthors!
Just look at past posts. It's there. Some people here love to cut other people down. Its all about their ego.
Agreed, that was not called for. It would have been better done offline. The new PhD was certainly guilty of not doing sufficient research.
I must say, in the 30 years where I'm at, never ever have I seen that occur. Maybe that's just a medical researcher thing? I agree that sometimes the young ones come off as arrogant, but the offline approach when possible, is better. Tends to make friends instead of enemies.
When Tom Van Doren made two errors (trivial ones at that), I spoke to him offline during a break. The errors were of no importance to the audience, nor were the corrections. Since I was the one designing the entire wiring system for our machine, it only mattered that I knew.
jn
- Status
- Not open for further replies.