I’m currently prototyping B&C 15CXN76 in an open baffle setup. Eventually they will be used as LCR in my hometheater integrated to a baffle wall. These are heavily inspired by the Saurama’s Piste and Äänilevy speakers:
Kaiutinrakennusohje Piste - 8-, 12- ja 15-tuumaiset hifi-PA-koaksiaalit - AudioVideo
Kaiutinrakennusohje Aanilevy 2x12, 4x12, 2x15 ja 4x15 - AudioVideo
I’m going for a full active setup. I started with MiniDSP 2x4HD but moved to Asus Xonar U7 MKII since I want to add a sub to this prototype. I’m now using REW-RePhase-CamillaDSP to implement linear phase crossovers, eq and delays. Once I got Xonar behaving the combo is pretty nice and stable. I like the logical configuration of CamillaDSP.
I am no golden ear but even with my initial filters in totally unfinished basement the sound is pretty amazing. Bass is definitely lacking (OB) but the vocals sound great and sound stage is large and transparent.
I chose coaxial because I thought it would easier to design my first speakers around it. So far it seems so. I will create my own thread once I have the sub built and filters fine tuned.
Kaiutinrakennusohje Piste - 8-, 12- ja 15-tuumaiset hifi-PA-koaksiaalit - AudioVideo
Kaiutinrakennusohje Aanilevy 2x12, 4x12, 2x15 ja 4x15 - AudioVideo
I’m going for a full active setup. I started with MiniDSP 2x4HD but moved to Asus Xonar U7 MKII since I want to add a sub to this prototype. I’m now using REW-RePhase-CamillaDSP to implement linear phase crossovers, eq and delays. Once I got Xonar behaving the combo is pretty nice and stable. I like the logical configuration of CamillaDSP.
I am no golden ear but even with my initial filters in totally unfinished basement the sound is pretty amazing. Bass is definitely lacking (OB) but the vocals sound great and sound stage is large and transparent.
I chose coaxial because I thought it would easier to design my first speakers around it. So far it seems so. I will create my own thread once I have the sub built and filters fine tuned.
Then there is img stageline 312cx, seems to be in celestion class
Test Lautsprecherchassis Tieftoner, Lautsprecherchassis Hochtoner -
Test Lautsprecherchassis Tieftoner, Lautsprecherchassis Hochtoner -
large coaxials are very cool, but do they really give the very best sound quality for home audio use at low and moderate sound levels, or will smaller coaxials like seas or kef or tb speakers sound even better?
Big drivers often needs big enclosures and that in its self can have sound quality issues
Big drivers often needs big enclosures and that in its self can have sound quality issues
But do one really need big drivers in big boxes for low and moderate sound levels?
And big boxes do need to be massively built not to have any self noise.
Can you give an example on a big coaxial driver in a big box that sounds more clean then say seas t18 used at low sound levels and used in nearfield?
And big boxes do need to be massively built not to have any self noise.
Can you give an example on a big coaxial driver in a big box that sounds more clean then say seas t18 used at low sound levels and used in nearfield?
Celef, what about directivity behavior and locating xover in less 'offending' area ?
I'm with AllenB, there is no reason a big driver needs to play loud. They can but don't need to. Like a supercar: you can drive 250km/h but you still have brakes and rules to follow.
You might encounter this ( i have with some monitors in studios which was ok at a given spl level, less lower or upper) but it is related to interaction between passive crossover and amplifier for what i've experienced. Go multi amp and active filtering and this usually disapear.
Tannoy System15 DmtII. But ymmv of course. For me it is the best i've heard to date.
I'm with AllenB, there is no reason a big driver needs to play loud. They can but don't need to. Like a supercar: you can drive 250km/h but you still have brakes and rules to follow.
You might encounter this ( i have with some monitors in studios which was ok at a given spl level, less lower or upper) but it is related to interaction between passive crossover and amplifier for what i've experienced. Go multi amp and active filtering and this usually disapear.
Tannoy System15 DmtII. But ymmv of course. For me it is the best i've heard to date.
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Indeed, controlling where the sound goes over a wide band is probably the best reason for using a larger size. An extension of this is diffraction control, which is also about clean sound.
Re your second point, I'm not aware of any crossover interaction with an amplifier that can't be dealt with.
Re your second point, I'm not aware of any crossover interaction with an amplifier that can't be dealt with.
To me its opposite. A large speaker (with a large bass and cabinet) works better than smaller speakers at low levels. I don't need to play as loud to get what I want as I have to with small speakers. Larger is better at any volume. For coaxials though (like any 2-way) it might be a challenge because somethings got to give. 2-way has it limitations. You wont get the deepest/loudest bass, clearest mids and the brightest highs at any volume with a 2-way. But if you can live with a slightly bumpy response and perhaps give up some of the >15kZ and the <50Hz then a large point source will give many other benefits. Its a preference. Nothing is best. Coax is in general rather pricey but comparing to a 3-way 15" solution maybe its still a cheaper solution. Its the old discussion. 15"+horn (coax or not) vs 3-way. Some like dome tweeters and 6,5" inch midbass. I do not any longer. Perhaps if I tried some Sonus Fabers I dont know. I never really tried high end gear. But Ive listened to a lot of PA. And I like it.
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I suppose that partially depends on whether the larger speakers naturally have higher sensitivity, but you're definitely right with 'nothing is best' - there's always a trade-off somewhere, thanks to physics 
I know that earlier in the thread there were examples made of 'synergizing' coaxial speakers, but can we just horn-load (front horn) a coaxial speaker?
I know that earlier in the thread there were examples made of 'synergizing' coaxial speakers, but can we just horn-load (front horn) a coaxial speaker?
AllenB,
Well you know... i'm not patient enough with passive filter! And why i have so much respect for those who master this. So i can only believe you when you say this.
Me, well , a bunch of amps a dsp a mic and soundcard... and here i go: a complex setup but which sound as i like!
Fabricadetabaco i think you summarize well the situation. You should try a 3 way with coax ( sealed for the coax part). There is really some great thing to be gained there imho ( and your wife will be happy!).
UnaHm,
Danley have some models which are just that coax nested into a waveguide ( not a synergy, really a coax within a waveguide- eg: SM lpm and maybe the SM80).
I've read from older thread here it was a bad idea ( but can't remember why or if it was clearly expressed why). Nevertheless it exist and given Danley is a smart guy i think there may be some advantage to this - like directivity control one octave lower than xover freq?- but it may require some skills and tools to have same kind of profile as the SM lpm.
Well you know... i'm not patient enough with passive filter! And why i have so much respect for those who master this. So i can only believe you when you say this.
Me, well , a bunch of amps a dsp a mic and soundcard... and here i go: a complex setup but which sound as i like!
Fabricadetabaco i think you summarize well the situation. You should try a 3 way with coax ( sealed for the coax part). There is really some great thing to be gained there imho ( and your wife will be happy!).
UnaHm,
Danley have some models which are just that coax nested into a waveguide ( not a synergy, really a coax within a waveguide- eg: SM lpm and maybe the SM80).
I've read from older thread here it was a bad idea ( but can't remember why or if it was clearly expressed why). Nevertheless it exist and given Danley is a smart guy i think there may be some advantage to this - like directivity control one octave lower than xover freq?- but it may require some skills and tools to have same kind of profile as the SM lpm.
Looking back at my speaker experiments with speaker building, I came to a conclusion, that if a certain part of the audio band is symmetrical horizontally and vertically, it seems to work the best for me. Full range Hedlund Horn with Lowther DX2, KEF iQ300, PA coaxials, my synergy attempt - even with quick and dirty setup worked always the best for me. A large horn + large PA midbass came always as close second. A large mid horn with a tweeter horn, if placed properly, are enjoyable to me as well - but to find the proper placement and crossover points take a lot of effort for me. I cannot tolerate any small 2-3 traditional style boxes anymore (most of the consumer low-mid end). Lack of headroom and often uncontrolled dispersion are the key problems I think. And of course, there is also the looks thing. Maybe it is the most important factor or I have not heard a really high end well executed design. In DIY, it is (IMHO) the easiest way to get some really pleasing results using full range, coaxial or synergy designs. At least to my ear/eye.
One of the projects on my list is to put the 12XA30 into a waveguide resulting in something like 600 mm diameter (or 600 x 600 baffle with roundover). Made with 3D printing in pieces or CNC machined foam with laminated surface. It is a bit low on the list at the moment due to two problems. 1) how to calculate the curve so that is is meaningful and 2) how to interface the horn properly to the coax.
For 1), I tried to create something with ATH4, not very successfully at the moment. For 2) I envision a flat baffle with flushmount 12XA30 and the horn placed over the mounting ring. The problem is how to make the driver removable in that case.
One of the projects on my list is to put the 12XA30 into a waveguide resulting in something like 600 mm diameter (or 600 x 600 baffle with roundover). Made with 3D printing in pieces or CNC machined foam with laminated surface. It is a bit low on the list at the moment due to two problems. 1) how to calculate the curve so that is is meaningful and 2) how to interface the horn properly to the coax.
For 1), I tried to create something with ATH4, not very successfully at the moment. For 2) I envision a flat baffle with flushmount 12XA30 and the horn placed over the mounting ring. The problem is how to make the driver removable in that case.
There always seems to be a good reason why Danley's used something in his design
Most of the design goals are focused towards PA-level environments, which as we know isn't necessarily right for home use either (take the Paraline, for example). I'll take a look at the SM designs, krivium - thanks!I definitely look forward to seeing your progress on this pelanj! One thought I had regarding fixing the horn over the mounting ring was to use magnets. In one of the Bass Guitars I have, the access panel has neodymium magnets epoxied into the access panel itself, which then attach to the heads of screws that are in the Bass's body. It takes some effort to remove the panel, so depending on your application something like that might work (e.g. magnets glued into the back of the horn, and screws driven into the main cabinet).
You could also make slots in the back of the horn, which you then slide over screws in the main cabinet - slots like you find in the back of AC power strips so you can mount them to the wall...
Why the waveguide? Is it to hold pattern control lower?
If so, there is an easier way - cardioid
Say you have a 12" coax driver. Put a 12" woofer inverted polarity on the back of the cabinet directly behind the front. Feed it with about 1.3 ms delay and about -9db SPL/gain relative to the front. You can do an active cardioid and model it that way in Vituix, which is all I've done, or build a passive cardioid. An array of small side woofers also work and control directivity to a higher frequency.
Have you seen the MrSticha thread? He is doing the coax in a waveguide thing.
I should show an example. Here is a Vituix screenshot of a 12" coax surrounded by an array of 4 2.5" IIRC small woofers on each side to get cardioid response with extended H & V pattern control.
The rear woofer version wasn't nearly as impressive but did give good rejection to the rear for less effort
The directivity model I used for the coax was crude but I think it serves to show the potential of this approach
The rear woofer version wasn't nearly as impressive but did give good rejection to the rear for less effort
The directivity model I used for the coax was crude but I think it serves to show the potential of this approach
Attachments
Actually, I liked the idea of Danley SM80 - and the width would match the stack below it. Cardioid looks like an elegant solution, experimenting with active cardioid is also somewhere on my list, but maybe even lower The 12XA30 is really good and I would like to have it in a usable box, the current ones have flaws.
If I see correctly in the pictures, Danley just bolts the waveguides to the baffle behind them through the horn flare. Magnets could work, good idea.
Edit: The simulations above look very interesting!
Edit2: I forgot to mention that the final stack will most probably create a false wall, so the waveguide was meant to provide some transition from the cone to a flat baffle IIRC.
The 12XA30 is really good and I would like to have it in a usable box, the current ones have flaws. If I see correctly in the pictures, Danley just bolts the waveguides to the baffle behind them through the horn flare. Magnets could work, good idea.
Edit: The simulations above look very interesting!
Edit2: I forgot to mention that the final stack will most probably create a false wall, so the waveguide was meant to provide some transition from the cone to a flat baffle IIRC.
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if higher directivity means i can increase the listening distance then i am for it.
i am not saying big is bad, my question is more of if big drivers is a must? in a nearfield and low level (spl) setup big drivers in big boxes feels little bit overkill, especially so when big boxes needs massive care to lower their self noise. large cavities rumbles more then small cavities.
i would like to mimic my old pair of senn's hd600 clean sound in a pair of speakers, which drivers can do that you think?
i think i want the cleanest output as possible, i do not like when i hear sameness in a speaker or setup, a big speakerbox that rumbles is sameness to me, a small speaker that has no self noise is therefor better in my book, regardless of size
i have done some simple a/b-testing and when levels where not matched i did some very bad conclusions, the bigger speakers always sounded better because of their higher output when i switched between speakers, but when i matched their output levels the outcome became very different, maybe not new to you but to me it was a surprise that sound level seems to fool the ear and masks sound quality