This looks like another great option, and they have the RH-3, A-290, and TH-4001. Given the high cost of the finished horns I would be likely to purchase the unfinished version which most likely would match the cabinets better.
I see they also have the Iwata, but these are just too large to fit in the available space.
The site is in French but I can read it fine, writing to them in comprehensible French might be a problem as my French after 45 years of infrequent use is not good.
jzagaja Is the alias of the guy I was mentioning, if he can produce those horns, its a good chance he'll beat those prices.
Kevinkr,
If you need a translation we are some french native speaker which could help on board (and we knows the technical words corespondence in french).
Feel free to pm if you need.
If you need a translation we are some french native speaker which could help on board (and we knows the technical words corespondence in french).
Feel free to pm if you need.
Hi Kevin, I run the 2380A also with a 2445 driver. The speakers just completely disappear and you are left it with just instruments in a 3D space. I guess I'm really sold on this horn/driver combo. I tried other drivers, like the BMS 2" coaxials and they just sound wrong even though the response is about the same as the 2445 drivers. I believe it has to do with the wide and even dispersion of the horn and if the crossover is smooth and you match the directivity, it sounds just wonderful.
I'm really eager to hear your impressions of the Yuichi horn. Have you had a chance to hear them? If there is something better, would love to hear it.
I'm really eager to hear your impressions of the Yuichi horn. Have you had a chance to hear them? If there is something better, would love to hear it.
I'm wondering what compression driver the Strauss MF2.1 uses on the 2380A horn. The description matches the Radian driver quite well, but could be something else.
I think I've mentioned I am using Radian Neo 950 PB on my 2380A and I will admit that they do sound quite good. The JBL 2440 I used on them previously were pretty disappointing. I've had these for a long time and I guess I am looking for something even better. Hopefully I am not on a fools errand.
The Yuichi A-290 horn is one I have been interested in for a long time, but both the RH-3 and TH-4001 seem worth investigating.
I heard the TH-4001 but long ago, and it was so alien to my experience and out of reach that I did not even consider it. It was at least a decade before I made the jump to horns.
I think I've mentioned I am using Radian Neo 950 PB on my 2380A and I will admit that they do sound quite good. The JBL 2440 I used on them previously were pretty disappointing. I've had these for a long time and I guess I am looking for something even better. Hopefully I am not on a fools errand.
The Yuichi A-290 horn is one I have been interested in for a long time, but both the RH-3 and TH-4001 seem worth investigating.
I heard the TH-4001 but long ago, and it was so alien to my experience and out of reach that I did not even consider it. It was at least a decade before I made the jump to horns.
2445s are cheap. Moght be good to give those a try. My conclusion was that the JBL engineers knew what they were doing and the 2380 and 2445 are meant to go together. I think 2446 also is good but a bit more expensive. The BMS sounded woeful on that horn and by all objective measures it is far superior to the 2445.
Edit: I presume you are employing EQ to flatten the on axis response.
Edit: I presume you are employing EQ to flatten the on axis response.
Hi,
if I remember well you can contact them by mail in English. Otherwise you might get some native speaker support here as suggested
For you bass cabinets this type of horn is a very good choice imho as they have a small vertical foot print and a very good horizontal dispersion. You can read more about this type of horn in Kolbrek/Dunker's book also with suggestions how to improve them.
It is hard to get dimensions right from your photo but I would have placed the bass driver more in the upper region to have the acoustic centres more close to each other.
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On the other hand, crossing at 600 should bring this within a wavelength. The floor bounce is also near the cross, which might be a good thing. Moving the woofer higher could push the null down into the woofer passband, and it might not be low enough for an easy EQ.
Worth investigating though.
The center to center spacing is sub-optimum which is one of the reasons I am interested in a horn with a lower cutoff, that and perhaps a fairly healthy dose.
The system is 3 way HF above 8kHz is handled by Fostex T825..
The system is 3 way HF above 8kHz is handled by Fostex T825..
When isnt the center to center sub optimal with a horn system...how do you feel this has impacted SQ? Running a lower Xo on a smaller horn will help ctc....like 400 on the 2380a...otherwise a lower loading horn is just going to increase ctc at the same time?
Good point. Plan is to move the crossover point to 500Hz, which is the current lower limit of my active XO design. I'll probably try 500Hz with the 2380A horns in the interim..
I am not aware of any SQ downsides to this point, but am crossing at 700Hz because with the 2440 it seemed like performance deteriorated seriously below 700Hz both in measurements and sound quality.
A lower loading horn could definitely increase the CTC, which is why I would not want to go over 30cm height. The 2380A is a tad under 28cm. I think any of these horns fit within my constraints.
Like the Strauss my horns are angled slightly downward although not to the same extent (perhaps 6° or so) to address the vertical directivity of the horns relative to my listening position. Works much better than the 0° I used for years - this is a change implemented early this year and carried over when I replaced the drivers.
I will admit that purchasing the Radian 950 drivers was a bit of a nail biter, talking about throwing good money after bad. They resolve better, and are much cleaner sounding than my 2440. Having only the one pair of 2440 it is hard to know if my strong dislike of them is due to some deficit in their performance due to age and abuse or an inherent design issue. Changing diaphragms didn't help either. The 950 overall was more than worth the money spent on them.
I am not aware of any SQ downsides to this point, but am crossing at 700Hz because with the 2440 it seemed like performance deteriorated seriously below 700Hz both in measurements and sound quality.
A lower loading horn could definitely increase the CTC, which is why I would not want to go over 30cm height. The 2380A is a tad under 28cm. I think any of these horns fit within my constraints.
Like the Strauss my horns are angled slightly downward although not to the same extent (perhaps 6° or so) to address the vertical directivity of the horns relative to my listening position. Works much better than the 0° I used for years - this is a change implemented early this year and carried over when I replaced the drivers.
I will admit that purchasing the Radian 950 drivers was a bit of a nail biter, talking about throwing good money after bad. They resolve better, and are much cleaner sounding than my 2440. Having only the one pair of 2440 it is hard to know if my strong dislike of them is due to some deficit in their performance due to age and abuse or an inherent design issue. Changing diaphragms didn't help either. The 950 overall was more than worth the money spent on them.
The appeal of the A290/TH4001 was that it can cross comfortably below 1khz and even lower. What I didn't really consider was how the two different horns differed. I see now they are similar but not the same. Which does one pursue?
Understanding the errors in my design and that I also recognize I made those errors I think it would be fair to share some pictures of the speakers and the system in general.
My room is small and cluttered which is why I like these sort of horns, their controlled directivity works really well in my room.
This has been an ongoing project since 2006, and I expect the evolution to continue to some extent into the future. (KTA is in honor of my long defunct audio business.. lol)
The architecture is line stage > MiniDSP SHD > electronic crossovers > hybrid tube amplifiers > drivers.
I am currently running Dirac3 on my SHD. All of the electronics are of my own design except for the SHD.
Sweet spot is really for 1 or at most 2 people. Under the current circumstances there are no visitors.
My room is small and cluttered which is why I like these sort of horns, their controlled directivity works really well in my room.
This has been an ongoing project since 2006, and I expect the evolution to continue to some extent into the future. (KTA is in honor of my long defunct audio business.. lol)
The architecture is line stage > MiniDSP SHD > electronic crossovers > hybrid tube amplifiers > drivers.
I am currently running Dirac3 on my SHD. All of the electronics are of my own design except for the SHD.
Sweet spot is really for 1 or at most 2 people. Under the current circumstances there are no visitors.
Attachments
Add to this the RH-3 as well. I am still working through to the answer and getting a lot of good advice and suggestions from the everyone participating on the thread.
I've had a fascination with the Yuichi A-290 for a decade or so, but there are viable alternatives in these two other choices.
The 2380A is actually quite a good horn and before I make a decision I need to convince myself that one of these horns offers improvement beyond the aesthetic appeal all of these horns offer. The 2380A is unattractive but very competent so the replacement needs to better it, and this is what I am currently unsure about. It took me a long time to decide to replace the 2440 drivers, and the immediate consequence of that decision was a lot of work and self doubt, at the end the results are considerably better. I have more of everything I was looking for, but for a short time I wasn't so sure. (Of course it was mistakes along the way that clouded my assessment, once fixed those concerns quickly evaporated.)
I have also become even more sold on the benefits of DSP if used correctly. (And yup lots of mistakes there too.)
I think part of the appeal is just the experience of learning new things and expanding one's knowledge. I am curious by nature.
Hmm, interesting...I wonder what the source of the degradation was? You said measurements suffered....how so? What was the audial que? I think we can assume that this was driver related? on the jbl page it shows measurements of that driver on a 2350 horn and its down -1.5db at 400hz? I mean if the strauss is pulling it off with your horn....I can't really offer a normal perspective since the Axi is designed to play low...Somewhere in my thread a guy proved that his jbl driver could play lower than horn tuning at domestic levels
I left the idea of a lower loading horn with a question mark because I am not 100% on that...If there is not a full flair on the vertical portion of the horn, like with some rectangle and elliptical shaped horns...it is in the favor of CTC though not in favor of vertical off axis performance....I think around 200hz and lower the wavelength gets big enough that it relaxes, to a point where optimal CTC can be achieved with a horn....looking at the bigger horn, a round tractrix, is about 23" inches....13550/200/4=16..... that horn directly on top of a 15" would be around 19"....as long as we can expect to go a little bit lower than the tuning of the horn, this would make it. Even being off only 3" isn't too shabby, as long as SQ is still acceptable...A lot of if's involved there lol....Docali helped be arrive at the Hvdiff which is elliptical and tuned to around 170hz...we are hoping this will allow a 200hz XO with the Axi.
Woofer too far from the horn? Turn those Onken upside down! 😀
(I'm sure you've thought of this already)
BTW: What is the widest horn you can accommodate?
(I'm sure you've thought of this already)
BTW: What is the widest horn you can accommodate?
I always wonder what people are thinking when they place the woofer so far from the top baffle...Theres enough space on that front baffle to mount that horn in it....
Camplo, You pretty much hit the nail on the head, the original intention was to mount a 2391 horn and lens, and 2420 driver inside the cabinet just above the woofer. I ended up going a different route and ultimately after many trials ended up with the current set up a couple of years ago.
There isn't quite enough material to mount a 2380A in the available space, and back in 2006 when I designed the cabinets I was too inexperienced to know what direction I was going in.
I don't think in 2006 that I had any idea that I would still be using these bass cabinets 15 years later, more or less unchanged. Knowing what I know today I would have done some things differently.
Unfortunately flipping the cabinets isn't an option, the bases were not designed to be removed once installed and attempting to do so would likely compromise the panels they are attached to. WYSIWYG 🙂
I can fit a horn on top of no more than 80cm width and 50cm depth - and horns in that size range are likely too big for this room, and create mounting issues - I am not a good carpenter and most importantly I really don't want to be over 100° horizontal pattern in this room. I'm really looking at staying under 70cm wide and no more than 41cm deep excluding the driver.
Discussing it here with all of your input is providing some much needed clarity about what I think I want to do. 😀
There isn't quite enough material to mount a 2380A in the available space, and back in 2006 when I designed the cabinets I was too inexperienced to know what direction I was going in.
I don't think in 2006 that I had any idea that I would still be using these bass cabinets 15 years later, more or less unchanged. Knowing what I know today I would have done some things differently.
Unfortunately flipping the cabinets isn't an option, the bases were not designed to be removed once installed and attempting to do so would likely compromise the panels they are attached to. WYSIWYG 🙂
I can fit a horn on top of no more than 80cm width and 50cm depth - and horns in that size range are likely too big for this room, and create mounting issues - I am not a good carpenter and most importantly I really don't want to be over 100° horizontal pattern in this room. I'm really looking at staying under 70cm wide and no more than 41cm deep excluding the driver.
Discussing it here with all of your input is providing some much needed clarity about what I think I want to do. 😀