This thread deviated from its original goal around post #29 when the OP chose to enter into the world of subjectivism.
This was countered by attempts to discuss the objective, scientific behaviour of capacitors.
Neither camp has listened to the other, which has lead to frustration on both sides. This has indeed resulted in some childish behaviour, including my own!
Where are the pictures of his speakers?
I want to see them now! Now, now, now!😡
Pardon my childish behavior.
Electrolytic capacitor sound is a polarizing topic. Audio caps have their pluses and minuses. Some people really get charged up about it.🙄
I want to see them now! Now, now, now!😡
Pardon my childish behavior.
Electrolytic capacitor sound is a polarizing topic. Audio caps have their pluses and minuses. Some people really get charged up about it.🙄
I suppose the slight increase in ESR at 50 V is due to ESL coming in, IOW the effect of physical size.
They make a few values in different shapes, it's interesting to observe the effect of that.
Panasonic FM
[Cap - size: Irip, ESR@100k, nom. Endurance@105°C]
35V:
220µ - 8x15: 1240 mA, 41 mOhm, 3000 h
220µ - 10x12.5: 1290 mA, 38 mOhm, 4000 h
330µ - 8x20: 1560 mA, 30 mOhm, 4000 h
330µ - 10x16: 1790 mA, 26 mOhm, 4000 h
1200µ - 12.5x30: 3630 mA, 13 mOhm, 7000 h
1200µ - 16x20: 3300 mA, 17 mOhm, 5000 h
50V:
820µ - 12.5x35: 3270 mA, 14 mOhm, 7000 h
820µ - 16x20: 2870 mA, 19 mOhm, 5000 h
Some interesting things to be noted here.
The 50V/820µ @ 12.5x35 clearly punches above its weight, it actually beats the 1000µ part in ESR while handling almost the same ripple current at same endurance rating. It may have 6.8% more volume than the shorter and stouter one but handles 13.9% more current at 16.3% less ESR.
The 35V/1200µ @ 12.5x30 is 9.2% bigger than its 16x20 counterpart with 10% more current handling, that's pretty much a wash. Both ESR and current handling get very close to the 1500µ 12.5x35 part though (12 mOhm, 3750 mA), upgrading to that one seems hardly worth it.
The slim 35V/330µ is 1/5 smaller yet only a bit worse in ESR, though current handling expectedly takes a hit.
The slim 35V/220µ doesn't look like it fares a lot worse while being almost 1/4 smaller - but beware, its almost identical current handling comes at the price of a reduced endurance rating. IOW, the cap gets hotter. That's one way of cheating up your current rating.
I guess the slim parts can dissipate more because they have a larger surface area at a given volume. (For 50V/820µ, the difference is +15% if you treat them like cylinders. Some dissipation is going to be via the leads so I'd expect the effect to be less than that.) ESR wise, fewer longer layers clearly beat more shorter ones, too. It's clearly not hip to be square in this case. 😉
Stuff gets really interesting if you look at multiple parallel caps. If we assume that for you it doesn't really matter whether you have one 16x20 cap or 2x2 8x20 ones (still a bit bigger, but not extremely so), let's see what happens:
1x 50V/820µ - 2870 mA, 19 mOhm, 5000 h
4x 50V/180µ - [1430x4 =] 5720 mA, [33/4 =] 8.25 mOhm, 4000 h
Even if we'd have to derate the current rating a bit to hit the same endurance (let's say -20% = 4576 mA), that's not too shabby at all. ESR has more than halved. Granted, it means a bunch of solder joints and higher cost, but readily explains why SMPS generally have capacitor banks secondary-side. In linear supplies it's mostly about capacitance and dissipation, and simplicity / reliability may warrant using fewer, bigger parts instead.
This would not be the first time that someone who has claimed superior knowledge in one thread has somehow let slip in another thread that he is (ahem) not quite so superior. Now of course, we all have blind spots but one of the features of wise people is that they are generally more aware of the extent of their own ignorance.Galu said:
Of course, someone with a really fast learning curve (a "winner") could move from not knowing how a split rail supply works in mid-August (that thread) to fully understanding amp design (this thread) by mid-September.
I have said this before --- higher voltage caps are generally better than low voltage ones.
THx-RNMarsh
THx-RNMarsh
Last edited:
After reading the OP's earlier thread I'm persuaded that the above, offered by Anatech, was the most appropriate and only help likely to actually help.
On a serious note:
Within the superiority in attitude lies an even greater sense of inferiority.
Mostly towards college educated people and those who can afford expensive gear. Robert2017's superficiality is in his lack of insight and understanding. Complexity and uncertainty are not part of his perspective on audio or likely anything else. While accusing us of being closed minded or rigidly adhering to rules of science, he's the one who refuses to consider anything that deviates from what he "knows" is fact.
He seems to believe we are nothing more than trained fools. Knowing only what we've been taught without the ability he possesses. That ability is being better than others since he doesn't need the education or experience.
I don't have a degree in E.E. or any other subject and can't afford expensive gear. When I first started trying to understand how equipment works, it made no sense. Started at the beginning, read books on electronics, asked questions, experimented, etc... After all this, I'm still not fluent in the language, but can get a sense of what others are saying and ask for directions. Some people have to always feel they are smarter and better than everyone else and as in most scientific/technical realms, this will never be the case.
We are all ignorant when first exposed to something outside our knowledge or experience. While wishing we possessed those which others have so we can accomplish our goals is normal. Resenting them for having something we should because we're better or smarter is narcissistic and antisocial.
The thread about his Technics amp demonstrates his inability to think through a problem or make sense of things on a technical level. To do this requires someone to accept the fact they don't know what they're doing. He didn't start it with that attitude, nor this one. We're here to answer the technical, and as he sees it, meaningless part. His part, what is really important, his ability to make gear sound better, we can not question. If he returns to this thread, I'll be very surprised.
Ultimately, someone like Robert2017 is most concerned with how they feel and expects everyone else to do what is necessary so he feels the way he should. Adolescents exhibit this and it's one of the reasons they can be so aggravating to deal with. We know this happens during that age and expect it. We don't expect it from a 40 year old and try to communicate with reason and logic.
That's just my take, but what do I know, I ain't no college be edubacated expertin' dude?😉
Within the superiority in attitude lies an even greater sense of inferiority.
Mostly towards college educated people and those who can afford expensive gear. Robert2017's superficiality is in his lack of insight and understanding. Complexity and uncertainty are not part of his perspective on audio or likely anything else. While accusing us of being closed minded or rigidly adhering to rules of science, he's the one who refuses to consider anything that deviates from what he "knows" is fact.
He seems to believe we are nothing more than trained fools. Knowing only what we've been taught without the ability he possesses. That ability is being better than others since he doesn't need the education or experience.
I don't have a degree in E.E. or any other subject and can't afford expensive gear. When I first started trying to understand how equipment works, it made no sense. Started at the beginning, read books on electronics, asked questions, experimented, etc... After all this, I'm still not fluent in the language, but can get a sense of what others are saying and ask for directions. Some people have to always feel they are smarter and better than everyone else and as in most scientific/technical realms, this will never be the case.
We are all ignorant when first exposed to something outside our knowledge or experience. While wishing we possessed those which others have so we can accomplish our goals is normal. Resenting them for having something we should because we're better or smarter is narcissistic and antisocial.
The thread about his Technics amp demonstrates his inability to think through a problem or make sense of things on a technical level. To do this requires someone to accept the fact they don't know what they're doing. He didn't start it with that attitude, nor this one. We're here to answer the technical, and as he sees it, meaningless part. His part, what is really important, his ability to make gear sound better, we can not question. If he returns to this thread, I'll be very surprised.
Ultimately, someone like Robert2017 is most concerned with how they feel and expects everyone else to do what is necessary so he feels the way he should. Adolescents exhibit this and it's one of the reasons they can be so aggravating to deal with. We know this happens during that age and expect it. We don't expect it from a 40 year old and try to communicate with reason and logic.
That's just my take, but what do I know, I ain't no college be edubacated expertin' dude?😉
I can't make photos with crossovers right now because I will need to opem the speaker and I don;t have time right now but I will do when I open the speakers because I will do some bypassing someday after I buy the special teflon caps
I'm not and engineer or specialized in repairing amps but I have golden "hi-end" baby ears plus hi-end speakers and a treated room .
This is more than enough for me as a sound engineer .
The reality will always remain the same that true audio caps being vastly superior.. but if someone lives in a theoretical realm in which he don't have a good reference audio space I understand that angle of view by just presuming that is that way because I know that and that and you don't know that so ...
This is more than enough for me as a sound engineer .
The reality will always remain the same that true audio caps being vastly superior.. but if someone lives in a theoretical realm in which he don't have a good reference audio space I understand that angle of view by just presuming that is that way because I know that and that and you don't know that so ...
Oh Boy ....
Peeping round the corner from my lowly perch here in the southern hemisphere of this 4th rock from our sun, I feel that I have scored one point: I successfully resisted the temptation/bait to throw in a morsel of wisdom - which others have done better than I could have, anyway. On the way here I even gained some free reassurance that I am still on the right track despite my wasted varsity years -
Okay, I must not start/restart! But, in the end; perhaps I am permitted some consolation from the fact that almost all of my labours, audio-wise, have met with success, even praise of clients/friends; no small privilege after a lifetime in engineering,
including reassurance that the principles of electronics are still standing - or, to be completely (scientifically) honest, that I am in good company at least, should all of us be proved wrong.
Goodness knows: The effort to achieve that has been persistent enough ....
Peeping round the corner from my lowly perch here in the southern hemisphere of this 4th rock from our sun, I feel that I have scored one point: I successfully resisted the temptation/bait to throw in a morsel of wisdom - which others have done better than I could have, anyway. On the way here I even gained some free reassurance that I am still on the right track despite my wasted varsity years -
Okay, I must not start/restart! But, in the end; perhaps I am permitted some consolation from the fact that almost all of my labours, audio-wise, have met with success, even praise of clients/friends; no small privilege after a lifetime in engineering,
including reassurance that the principles of electronics are still standing - or, to be completely (scientifically) honest, that I am in good company at least, should all of us be proved wrong.
Goodness knows: The effort to achieve that has been persistent enough ....
Dear RNMarsh, I am interested in your very solid based opinions.
I would want to resurrect this potentially good thread by omitting all kind or personal confrontation and making only critics about accepted or putative knowledge or experiences.
It is true that opposite camps will probably never share a calm conversation...but there are scientifics with golden ears and deaf empiricists and all the variations between...
Talking about forum rules, do we have as a rule to study logic fallacies and totally avoid them?
Thanks,
M.
So if a representative from Nichicon read this thread they would agree with your position. Is that what you're saying?
- Status
- Not open for further replies.