Looking at a larger two way build.
Are there any other 10" units that could work in a 2 way system, crossover point would be at around 1.6 Khz or so likely using TW034X0 tweeter or possibly the bigger Seas 35mm dome.
The A26 is an excellent unit but would like something with better power handling etc. Yes the driver will need more work than the A26 to implement in a 2 way.
Thanks
Are there any other 10" units that could work in a 2 way system, crossover point would be at around 1.6 Khz or so likely using TW034X0 tweeter or possibly the bigger Seas 35mm dome.
The A26 is an excellent unit but would like something with better power handling etc. Yes the driver will need more work than the A26 to implement in a 2 way.
Thanks
The Seas CA26RE4X. But it has the same Power Handling. To reach the higher frequencies you need to compromise on voice coil mass which limits your bass and power. Notice that both the A26 and CA26 have a 38mm coil and Mms less than 40 grams. Most 10 inch woofers for strictly bass have Mms above 50 grams.
This one outperforms the A26 in almost every respect: Eminence Legend BP102
The dip at 500 Hz can largely be filled by baffle step and appropriate low-pass filter design.
The dip at 500 Hz can largely be filled by baffle step and appropriate low-pass filter design.
This one outperforms the A26 in almost every respect: Eminence Legend BP102
The dip at 500 Hz can largely be filled by baffle step and appropriate low-pass filter design.
Really? And how does it "better" the A26? Be specific. Do you even know why the A26 (and it's predecessor) were highly regarded?
The Eminence BP102 is special because it's a PA (guitar) speaker with a very low Fs of 35 Hz.
Compared to the Seas A26 it is cheaper, has higher sensitivity, higher xmax, higher power handling and provides an F3 of 40 Hz in 70 liters vented.
The driver is used in the Tekton Pendragon
Compared to the Seas A26 it is cheaper, has higher sensitivity, higher xmax, higher power handling and provides an F3 of 40 Hz in 70 liters vented.
The driver is used in the Tekton Pendragon
OK, those are fine points to make. But none of them have anything to do with why the A26 is such a unique 10" woofer. There is a lot more to a driver than sensitivity, Xmax and Fs unless you only intend to use it right around its resonance frequency.
In every driver design there are compromises made. The A26RE, just like the original 25TV-EW chose its compromises to deliver that clean midrange at the expense of the deepest bass, and work in a relatively small aperiodic enclosure. The magnets on both are relatively small for the higher Qt needed for the aperiodic design. But that midrange was the selling point of what became the best selling speaker in the world, the Dynaco A25.
>>> The Eminence BP102 is special because it's a PA (guitar) speaker with a very low Fs of 35 Hz.
Would you put the BP102 into a 1.5cf box - sealed or ported? My simulations indicate sealed is better (flatter) but Eminence's own sheet doesn't recommend a sealed box larger than 1 cf.
I'm considering the Eminence BP102 and the Classic Dayton 10" (which is only about 87db per watt vs 91 for the BP102).
Any thoughts?
Would you put the BP102 into a 1.5cf box - sealed or ported? My simulations indicate sealed is better (flatter) but Eminence's own sheet doesn't recommend a sealed box larger than 1 cf.
I'm considering the Eminence BP102 and the Classic Dayton 10" (which is only about 87db per watt vs 91 for the BP102).
Any thoughts?
Thanks for the interesting feedback on the Eminence, Dissi. Certainly making me think harder on which driver to purchase. On the one hand I want the efficiency of the 'pro sound' driver - on the other hand I want the smoothness of the 'home' drivers. When I've seen unsmoothed frequency responses of pro and home drivers they both seem extremely uneven. Do you think the Eminence can be successfully crossed to a compression driver with a horn at 1.6k for a home system? I think it might work fine.
The Legend also gives me the option to either port or seal the box with good (but not optimal) results either way.
The Legend also gives me the option to either port or seal the box with good (but not optimal) results either way.
It has already been done and quite successfully. The Dynaco A25 is the best selling speaker of all time. It was a 10" woofer running with no filter to a 1.5" dome with only a capacitor. Many thought (including me) it had a better midrange than the AR 3a, which had a 2" dome mid between 575 Hz and 5 KHz.
Yes it can be, if you can design xover that can do it, meaning very complex if you want smooth "home" curve. It will be heroic effort.
The whole point with Dynaco was that SEAS purpose made such drivers that can work together with simplest xover and give relatively smooth response. But could we say that Eminence purpose made their driver for such loudspeaker? I don't think so. But it doesn't mean that it can't be used in two way home loudspeaker if you are not ambitious to build very smooth sounding speaker.
Past experience
The old Seas 10" has been around for a LONG time as most know with a couple of updates alone the way. Have used it in it's current configuration as an OB mid bass - mid range and as a dedicated sealed and aperiodic woofer in 1.5 cu. ft. effective volume enclosures. It is a good woofer, but not great. Lacks weight and dynamics. And it does have a nasty 6 db break up around 5K that is only 6 db down from the drivers native 89.5 db/watt out put below about 2K. And not very practical in a ported B4 alignment because of it's very large 170 liter VAS. It can play low, but not loud enough to justify the 4.5 cu. ft. box required for best ripple free performance.
On the plus side it is very well built and has consistent in terms of meeting published specs. And the nice cast frame. But it's light cone and spider are a bit fragile.
The BP102 is an excellent hi fi woofer candidate that is often overlooked.
It does every thing the Seas does and better at half the price. All you need to do is add a series 1.2 - 1.5 mh series inductor and you have a perfect 18 db/octave roll off starting at 2K. And the BP is DEAD flat below 2K and near zero break up above 2K.
And, with 1.5 + times the Xmax it can play louder and with way more dynamics. It is also 35% more efficient, double the power handling, much more ruggedly built and can work well in both reasonably sized ported and seal alignments. Moving mass is similar to the Seas.
If anybody is interested I can provide a couple of real world enclosure alignments that include typical RG values and what the finish product actually does in terms of f3 points and net efficiency values.
The old Seas 10" has been around for a LONG time as most know with a couple of updates alone the way. Have used it in it's current configuration as an OB mid bass - mid range and as a dedicated sealed and aperiodic woofer in 1.5 cu. ft. effective volume enclosures. It is a good woofer, but not great. Lacks weight and dynamics. And it does have a nasty 6 db break up around 5K that is only 6 db down from the drivers native 89.5 db/watt out put below about 2K. And not very practical in a ported B4 alignment because of it's very large 170 liter VAS. It can play low, but not loud enough to justify the 4.5 cu. ft. box required for best ripple free performance.
On the plus side it is very well built and has consistent in terms of meeting published specs. And the nice cast frame. But it's light cone and spider are a bit fragile.
The BP102 is an excellent hi fi woofer candidate that is often overlooked.
It does every thing the Seas does and better at half the price. All you need to do is add a series 1.2 - 1.5 mh series inductor and you have a perfect 18 db/octave roll off starting at 2K. And the BP is DEAD flat below 2K and near zero break up above 2K.
And, with 1.5 + times the Xmax it can play louder and with way more dynamics. It is also 35% more efficient, double the power handling, much more ruggedly built and can work well in both reasonably sized ported and seal alignments. Moving mass is similar to the Seas.
If anybody is interested I can provide a couple of real world enclosure alignments that include typical RG values and what the finish product actually does in terms of f3 points and net efficiency values.
the middle of Eminence's 10 lineup include their B102 - its smooth enough to run wide open and tougher than some home woofer
@John Busch - I'd like to hear more about using the BP102 in a 2-way
B102 is not as sensitive nor extended as when it first appeared years ago - the new version magnet is lighter - but external magnet dimensions the same as the old magnet. The old B102 had a multi-pleat surround and QTs ~0.23 - here's one of my old B102
http://i.imgur.com/nlAMH1Z.jpg
Old B102 Vs New B102 - indoors in my fake "Druid" pipe
Eminence BP102 vs Delta10a vs (current spec) B102
@John Busch - I'd like to hear more about using the BP102 in a 2-way
B102 is not as sensitive nor extended as when it first appeared years ago - the new version magnet is lighter - but external magnet dimensions the same as the old magnet. The old B102 had a multi-pleat surround and QTs ~0.23 - here's one of my old B102
http://i.imgur.com/nlAMH1Z.jpg
Old B102 Vs New B102 - indoors in my fake "Druid" pipe
Eminence BP102 vs Delta10a vs (current spec) B102
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Hi John, thanks for posting your thoughts about both of these drivers. Are you comparing the newer A26RE driver with the BP102 or the older A25 version? I would very much like to see the off-axis responses for the BP102 as well as HD/IMD and waterfall type data (if possible) to compare the two. I'm surprised that you commented about a 5k breakup peak being a problem (again thinking about the A26RE here) since I do not see any evidence of that in the Seas spec sheet data - I have not used one personally so I only have that for reference and not my own measurements. There is a 5k Hz breakup peak, but it is already down about 12dB and the peak is small. It's pretty clear that the A26RE will not be a good woofer, e.g. the bass region will be weak, but that is not what makes this driver unique - it's the controlled upper end rolloff.
Below is the A26RE4 MFG data:
Compare that to the Legend BP102-4 (the 8R version seems about the same):
These don't really seem comparable to me...
Anyway, if you or anyone is looking for a nice 10" high efficiency driver with reasonable Xmax I can suggest the Eminence Deltalite II 2510. I have measured a pair of these and they are pretty nice up to about 2kHz, both on and off axis. Breakup is not smooth and controlled enough to be used without a LP network, however, distortion is low (both HD and IMD), which is something I am concerned about with the BP102. The neo magnet Deltalite motor is pretty nice IMHO. I have also measured the 2515 version, and it is also quite good.
Edit: As I was writing my post, Freddi posted some interesting data on the BP102. I had only seen the "old" version I guess. The newer one does seem to have a much more controlled breakup region and rolloff above looks smooth. THAT could definitely work like the A25/A26, I just had not seen it before. Where do I find that driver??? When I look at for instance USSpeaker or PE I only see the "old" one based on the curves shown on the product page... Even Eminence shown only the "version 1" from what I can tell.
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