I am working on a system with a TPL150 on top, paired with an Audax HM210Z10.
These should go well together efficiency-wise; crossover around 2 kHz.
The Audax, though an 8" unit, is a pure midrange driver with it's 170 Hz or so Fs, and should behave well from about 350 Hz.
As an alternative I also have 8PE21 which has a much stronger motor but very low Qt.
For bass a 15 inch Beyma in sealed enclosure with Linkwitz transform to extend bass, separately powered.
These should go well together efficiency-wise; crossover around 2 kHz.
The Audax, though an 8" unit, is a pure midrange driver with it's 170 Hz or so Fs, and should behave well from about 350 Hz.
As an alternative I also have 8PE21 which has a much stronger motor but very low Qt.
For bass a 15 inch Beyma in sealed enclosure with Linkwitz transform to extend bass, separately powered.
The reason why I want to make a xo around 80-110 hz is, in doing a double bass array with delays, invertions.....,, you shouldn't come in a area where wavelength gets shorter so above this area.
Dieters TPL150h with two PHL 3020 sound great like the SON B MKII like mine, but with the Subs they are really big and I want to get the boxes smaller and put the Subs directly at the wall with a delay of the Top150h and the midbass!
So actually a two way speaker system with a invisible sub system.
We have built this with a the B&C Coax 8cx21 and B&C 15bg100 Subs active with extraordinary sound. Maybe of a angular dispersion of 100 degree. So a wide theatre. And I want to try something similar but with the TPL150h
Dieters TPL150h with two PHL 3020 sound great like the SON B MKII like mine, but with the Subs they are really big and I want to get the boxes smaller and put the Subs directly at the wall with a delay of the Top150h and the midbass!
So actually a two way speaker system with a invisible sub system.
We have built this with a the B&C Coax 8cx21 and B&C 15bg100 Subs active with extraordinary sound. Maybe of a angular dispersion of 100 degree. So a wide theatre. And I want to try something similar but with the TPL150h
Too many variables
The thing about audio reproduction is, there are just too many variables to suggest that a concrete template exists for success. For me to suggest a 250Hz crossover point to the mid range is the absolute best, would be a tremendous dis-service. It just depends. It depends on the other x-over points. It depends on the slopes. It depends on the intrinsic behavior of the drive units involved. 250Hz works for me, only because I use a front loaded horn with an 8inch cone driver. It's very light weight, with a tremendously large magnet structure. I gave a thumbs up to Mr. Mayhem because he seems to "get it".
To be able to deliver the nuances of detail, a light weight cone, which specializes in mid range reproduction, should not (IMO) be weighed down
trying to reproduce upper bass. But, it's not the ONLY WAY of doing things.
If we wish to go with a different approach; say using a compression driver in an appropriate sized horn, we might be able to cover from 700Hz, up to as high as we can hear, or at least as high to where crossing to a super tweeter does not take away from the apparent point source. IMO, this approach works at it's best when there is [also]HORN loaded lower mid-range to provide lower frequency support. In this case we would strive to go as low as possible before crossing down to a "sub". Since this thread is discussing the best mid range to pair with the Beyma TPL, there can only be one answer: It just depends. Which is really no an answer at all. Small light weight cones that can match the articulation, most likely will not grab enough air in the lower mid range, such that using a larger driver makes more sense, except now we approach the situation where compromise in articulation is introduced by using the very same larger cone we needed to reproduce realistic lower mid range. Other than Angelo, I have heard no one else reporting the success of using a 12 inch device with the TPL. This does not mean it can not work, it's just more likely that it's a mater of personal taste, which audio is all about anyway. WAIT.... Just before I close this out, I remembered that speaker unit from Mark Levinson that does essentially the same thing as Angelo, except their hi-frequency device is compression driver loaded, but IT IS crossed at 1800Hz. This puts Angelo in fine company, or maybe it's vice versa. 🙂
https://www.danielhertz.com/products/m1
The thing about audio reproduction is, there are just too many variables to suggest that a concrete template exists for success. For me to suggest a 250Hz crossover point to the mid range is the absolute best, would be a tremendous dis-service. It just depends. It depends on the other x-over points. It depends on the slopes. It depends on the intrinsic behavior of the drive units involved. 250Hz works for me, only because I use a front loaded horn with an 8inch cone driver. It's very light weight, with a tremendously large magnet structure. I gave a thumbs up to Mr. Mayhem because he seems to "get it".
To be able to deliver the nuances of detail, a light weight cone, which specializes in mid range reproduction, should not (IMO) be weighed down
trying to reproduce upper bass. But, it's not the ONLY WAY of doing things.
If we wish to go with a different approach; say using a compression driver in an appropriate sized horn, we might be able to cover from 700Hz, up to as high as we can hear, or at least as high to where crossing to a super tweeter does not take away from the apparent point source. IMO, this approach works at it's best when there is [also]HORN loaded lower mid-range to provide lower frequency support. In this case we would strive to go as low as possible before crossing down to a "sub". Since this thread is discussing the best mid range to pair with the Beyma TPL, there can only be one answer: It just depends. Which is really no an answer at all. Small light weight cones that can match the articulation, most likely will not grab enough air in the lower mid range, such that using a larger driver makes more sense, except now we approach the situation where compromise in articulation is introduced by using the very same larger cone we needed to reproduce realistic lower mid range. Other than Angelo, I have heard no one else reporting the success of using a 12 inch device with the TPL. This does not mean it can not work, it's just more likely that it's a mater of personal taste, which audio is all about anyway. WAIT.... Just before I close this out, I remembered that speaker unit from Mark Levinson that does essentially the same thing as Angelo, except their hi-frequency device is compression driver loaded, but IT IS crossed at 1800Hz. This puts Angelo in fine company, or maybe it's vice versa. 🙂
https://www.danielhertz.com/products/m1
So
1. TPL150H
2. Lightweight midrange (6-8 inch)
3. Mid Bass (10-12 inch)
4. Sub (15-18 inch)
Would this be a good project, I should go on? Believe me, the SON B MKII with two PHL2460 8 inch in a 2.5 way is great. But the question is, are there better options? Humans are never satisfied.
For which xo (see above) and for which speakers you would go for?
However ever active.
1. TPL150H
2. Lightweight midrange (6-8 inch)
3. Mid Bass (10-12 inch)
4. Sub (15-18 inch)
Would this be a good project, I should go on? Believe me, the SON B MKII with two PHL2460 8 inch in a 2.5 way is great. But the question is, are there better options? Humans are never satisfied.
For which xo (see above) and for which speakers you would go for?
However ever active.
I must say that I am quite impressed with that Audax driver. 380hz is another wonderful crossover point, as per what I have heard from some of the finest B&W speakers. Big whompin' 15 inch below, say OH YES, you are cookin good with that 3 way design 🙂
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-midrange/audax-hm210z10-8-aerogel-midrange/
Last edited:
I personally see no need for the 10-12" midbass when the 15" driver is capable. I use the JBL 2226 which IMO is THE BEST midbass woofer available. There'/ a kinetic slam that subwoofers don't do and there's the smoothed downward slope into the higher FR range that crosses like butter to a mid in the 200-300hz range with a 2nd order electric. I use the peaked response to combat the very common floor/ceiling bounce. The 2226 has worked in many designs all the way up to 700hz to cross with large format compression drivers for a very high efficiency large two way. I've done this with the 18sound wg and a B&C 1.4" driver.
Or how about Acoustic Elegance woofers? I see the AE TD15H are used in the Avalon Acoustics Tesseract speakers. With the Apollo upgrade they are the same price as JBL 2226. However I can't find any measurements on the AE drivers.
Yeah. Acoustic Elegance is always a big unknown in my mind. The don't publish measurement because they trust speaker manufacturers to run their own measuremnts. Of course that doesn't help hobbyists much because we need to see something before we buy. Hobbyists have used and some published measurements of the larger models, but I haven't seen 6" or 8" measuremnts. Come to think about it, I don't recall seeing 10" either. They use a different profile cone and apparently that helps reduce beaming so my thinking was an 8" TD8M under the TPL. But without data I'm not buying an expensive driver. Plus sensitivity was low for my needs.
FWIW, Vapor Audio makes the Cirrus: a 2-way large monitor with TPL-150H and Acoustic Elegance 10" below. While Vapor likes AE drivers, they usually use Raal tweeters. On this model they used TPL because they cross it over al 1000-1100Hz (and Raals around 3-4kHz). Vapor also uses 15" AE drivers in larger speakers, but not for dedicated midrange...so I take that as clue.
I have heard the TD12M as a midrange paired with a Beyma CP380M CD in a H290C horn. I didn't have anything else to compare with but they did sound good to my ears.
Minhembio.com - Hemma hos dac83 - Nya Bio Bygget Del 2
Minhembio.com - Hemma hos dac83 - Nya Bio Bygget Del 2
Mine is a work in progress. Right now I'm still using my B&W 804S, but with the bass xo removed and driven actively, until my DIY speaker takes a little more shape and I buy another amp.
My system:
My only source is a highly optimized computer running digital crossovers, time alignment of drivers and room correction through Acourate software (audiovero.de). This feeds an 8-channel DAC that outputs 2 channels to the subwoofers, 2 to midbass amps (Hypex UcD400), and 2 to a McIntosh MC275 tube amp. The last 2 are to be used with a SET I still have to buy. And eventually the MC275 replaced by another SET. Long trip! 🙂
The DIY speaker so far consists:
- TPL-150H from 1.8 - 2kHz on up. Would prefer 2kHz, but depends on midrange. XO slope TBD, but steep. Maybe 8th order.
- midrange: I'm experimenting with DIY horns driven by Faital Pro M5N12 5" cone. So far it looks I'll be crossing this one closer to 1.8 than 2kHz. Lower xo point somewhere 400 to 600Hz I think. As before, slopes to be steep and a non-issue given my setup. So far built 3 prototypes and wasn't convinced. Building my 4th now. Not too much time available so progress is slow. I have a very long thread on my trials and tribulations 😱
- midbass: two Beyma 10G40 per side in sealed enclosures from 80Hz up to where the midrange needs. I wanted a 12", but number crunching suggested two of these would do better. Very fast, strong motors, very little displacement given the two units per side so very low distortion. Baffle 50cm wide to push baffle step right where these can compensate for it through the Acourate correction. The Hypex UcD400 will have no trouble at all with these.
- subwoofers: 2 Rythmik 12" (1 per side) in very heavy DIY sealed box. These I have from before I was looking into DIY speakers and active systems. At the time Rythmik said one 12" would be enough for my room, and said I didn't need a 15". If I were starting from scratch I'd probably use 15", and maybe two drivers per side. I can't tell I have an issue with what I have now, especially when corrected by Acourate, but common wisdom around here suggests 15" more than 12.
Beyma 10G40 and TPL150 in MTM configuration seems to be a winning team.
Why add a unnecessary midrange horn into the mix ?
Hello my friend. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm afraid you're mistaken in your comment about Vapor Audio's Cirrus monitors! Both the Black & White Cirrus speakers use a RAAL 70-20XR not the TPL-150H as you suggested! Anyone who so chooses can verify this quite easily by clicking on this link to: Vapor Audio's Cirrus Black Monitor. The photo clearly shows it's not a TPL-150H driver that's being used. However that said, there is a Vapor Audio model that does use a TPL-150H and which must be the model you were referring to! That's their Arcus 2-way monitor as seen here: Vapor Audio Arcus I hope that clears things up for anyone who might be interested.
Oh yeah, hi Angelo! Long time no see...
I'm listening to: Written In The Rocks by Renee Rosnes
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Last edited:
How do you deal with the vertical lobe caused by the 20" center to center spacing of the two Beymas???????
thats a good question. Maybe just one would be a better solution ?
i was referencing to the Hornet:
Hornet by Michael Weides
So in comparing motor Strength and Mms/Bl of the B&C 10mbx64 and the PHL 3020 you think, that the PHL is worth than the B&C?
I tried the AE TD10M in place of some Beyma and Faital Pro units . It sounds better than any large midwoofer I have used before. Very clean and crystal clear midrange. I think it is good value too considering the prices of some of the Beyma drivers