Thanks Angelo. I've looked into the Hornet. Certainly lobbing would be a concern, but something I could try with a prototype and settle it. What I like least is using a heavy woofer like the 10G40 for midrange reproduction, plus my intent to use a SET for the midrange and having the class D Hypex for the midbass...I would need to use the Hypex up to the TPL...not liking the idea.
Seems all designs are compromises we choose to make. The Hornet seems a great 2-way option, but a compromise vs a 4-way, which in turn requires more money, space, and adds more variables to the system.
Well...you need to start running your numbers to understand what people are telling you. Mms/Bl is an approximation to mass/force, which is 1/acceleration. Higher acceleration is better, so you want the smallest Mms/Bl. But that is only one parameter and you need to consider the range you intend to apply the woofer to. Le is another parameter. And frequency response and impedance are key to know, which is what PHL doesn't publish. My comments above were for midbass. You want to go up to midrange with this one.
In case it helps: I had a long thread also on midbass selection, where I learnt a lot and concluded on the 10G40. Maybe take a look and see if it helps learning how to think about selection criteria. I remember on that thread Overkill Audio suggested the TPL, a 6" PHL for mids, Beyma 12p80nd for midbass, and subs. For your frequency range the 12p80nd might be a great option, with a sub below it.
Does Achenbach have a a return policy? If so, maybe you can explain the situation to him, buy one PHL, measure it and if it doesn't work for you exchange it for the B&C or any other fallback plan? Being in Argentina, I unfortunatelly can't do that
Thanks for sharing this! I am always intrigued with these TD drivers. Everybody seems to really like them. Did you happen to measure yours?
It seems AE has dropped their TD8M. The TD10M is noted to play clean up to 2kHz...exactly where I'd like to xo. Lacking measuremnts I read that as too close for comfort. Interestingly, Vapor crosses this one over at around 1.1kHz...further feeding my discomfort with AE claims
Later on on my search my desire for using SET grew, especially 45-based, so now the 94dB/2.83V of the TD10M is looking a little low for my needs. Yet this is one of those drivers I keep coming back to every now and then.
NEVER user BL, always use (BL)²/Re as parameter for motor strength vs mass.
B&C : (BL)²/Re = 54.
PHL : (BL)²/Re = 31.
Mms is about the same.
B&C is much stronger motor, also indicated by its lower Qes = 2pi*Fs* Mms*Re/(BL)²
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Well...you need to start running your numbers to understand what people are telling you. Mms/Bl is an approximation to mass/force, which is 1/acceleration. Higher acceleration is better, so you want the smallest Mms/Bl. But that is only one parameter and you need to consider the range you intend to apply the woofer to. Le is another parameter. And frequency response and impedance are key to know, which is what PHL doesn't publish. My comments above were for midbass. You want to go up to midrange with this one.
In case it helps: I had a long thread also on midbass selection, where I learnt a lot and concluded on the 10G40. Maybe take a look and see if it helps learning how to think about selection criteria. I remember on that thread Overkill Audio suggested the TPL, a 6" PHL for mids, Beyma 12p80nd for midbass, and subs. For your frequency range the 12p80nd might be a great option, with a sub below it.
Does Achenbach have a a return policy? If so, maybe you can explain the situation to him, buy one PHL, measure it and if it doesn't work for you exchange it for the B&C or any other fallback plan? Being in Argentina, I unfortunatelly can't do that
Thanks a lot. I will read them when off of the airplane back at home.
A measurement of the PHL 3020 is here
http://lsv-achenbach.de/shop/images/kt_test_phl-E25-3020.jpg
Thanks a lot
That is a great illustration as to why most mid-bass cone drivers simply do not work in the upper mid range. They almost always exhibit "cone cry", and the dust cap is more often that not, what is to blame. Good luck finding a large enough diameter cone driver that can do both-- that is, grab enough air to reproduce the gutsy lower mid range and also be articulate enough in the upper mid range. 700 Hz and up, sure ! 700hz and down sure !! but seldom both ranges from a single driver.
I'm using the TD10M to 2k and there are no issues. When I have time, I'll look on my measurement rig and see if I still have any raw measurements.Thanks for sharing this! I am always intrigued with these TD drivers. Everybody seems to really like them. Did you happen to measure yours?
It seems AE has dropped their TD8M. The TD10M is noted to play clean up to 2kHz...exactly where I'd like to xo. Lacking measuremnts I read that as too close for comfort. Interestingly, Vapor crosses this one over at around 1.1kHz...further feeding my discomfort with AE claims
Later on on my search my desire for using SET grew, especially 45-based, so now the 94dB/2.83V of the TD10M is looking a little low for my needs. Yet this is one of those drivers I keep coming back to every now and then.
What kind of driver you use above and what's the high pass crossover?
Do you use any Sub?
Thanks for sharing this! I am always intrigued with these TD drivers. Everybody seems to really like them. Did you happen to measure yours?
It seems AE has dropped their TD8M. The TD10M is noted to play clean up to 2kHz...exactly where I'd like to xo. Lacking measuremnts I read that as too close for comfort. Interestingly, Vapor crosses this one over at around 1.1kHz...further feeding my discomfort with AE claims
Later on on my search my desire for using SET grew, especially 45-based, so now the 94dB/2.83V of the TD10M is looking a little low for my needs. Yet this is one of those drivers I keep coming back to every now and then.
Will need to save some measurements, have not started proper crossover deisgn yet
The TD 12M measurements can be found here:
https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se/ae-speakers-td12m
I have found almost all pro drivers to have a somewhat less clean sound than a hifi driver from scan speak, seas etc. It is subtle but noticeable
With AE I find that the drivers sound more like the dedicated hifi drivers but with higher efficiency. The company seems to have taken great care to iron out as many little quirks as possible.
I would have to say I wont be using anything else from now on for midbass / midrange duties. Its a shame shipping is so expensive to Australia though. I was lucky enough to pick mine up second hand in very good condition
PS I have crossed at 2k without any problems. Any breakup can be easily filtered as it is so benign
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SEOS12 above. Low end crossed to Dayton UM18 at 120hz as these are in a home theater.
Thanks for sharing this! I am always intrigued with these TD drivers. Everybody seems to really like them. Did you happen to measure yours?
It seems AE has dropped their TD8M. The TD10M is noted to play clean up to 2kHz...exactly where I'd like to xo. Lacking measuremnts I read that as too close for comfort. Interestingly, Vapor crosses this one over at around 1.1kHz...further feeding my discomfort with AE claims
Later on on my search my desire for using SET grew, especially 45-based, so now the 94dB/2.83V of the TD10M is looking a little low for my needs. Yet this is one of those drivers I keep coming back to every now and then.
Realizing WE ALL have our opinion, but it seems to me you are unnecessarily restricting your self with respect to your choice on a mid range because of this desire to use an SET amplifier. DH-SET's work their very best on very hi-efficiency compression drivers, but maybe not so much on cone drivers. Class A transistor amps work very well on a cone mid range. A true 94db mid is really quite nice. Of special note here is that AE "gets it" with regard to large cone mid-range,as they eliminated that nasty source of break-up, the "dustcap". p.s. I use the above mentioned amplifier combo on my own system, and it sounds superb.
two camps :
XO around 500/700 or even 1000/1200 then a horn/compression driver combo : POOH fellow with FANE Pro10 or B&C 8P21 horned
XO from ??v(200/700) to 8K then a tweeter : Scott L fellow (Tang Band 17 full range horned; Bastanis (OB big 12" mid), Zu (Eminence maison 10")
Both "philosophy"has no midrange in the usual 1500/3500 range !
Is there a big difference when it comes to choose a XO (so a design!) for instance between around 200 or 450 or 700 ?
I mean when talking about high efficienty system (>94/95 db W/m)???
XO around 500/700 or even 1000/1200 then a horn/compression driver combo : POOH fellow with FANE Pro10 or B&C 8P21 horned
XO from ??v(200/700) to 8K then a tweeter : Scott L fellow (Tang Band 17 full range horned; Bastanis (OB big 12" mid), Zu (Eminence maison 10")
Both "philosophy"has no midrange in the usual 1500/3500 range !
Is there a big difference when it comes to choose a XO (so a design!) for instance between around 200 or 450 or 700 ?
I mean when talking about high efficienty system (>94/95 db W/m)???
And..... a wonderful choice you made !
The Audax HM210Z10 is another nice example of a design that did away with the nasty dust cap !!
In France I often read than it is hard to work with this midrange : it breaks up very rapidly, it would be more an one octave driver or a filler !
But of course, it is sure than some talentuous guy with the good XO and the well choosed upper treble (here the TPL150 because the topic) can make a good choice as well ! POC is everything !
Do you find it sounds as good as the Tang Band FR you use everyday, at least in the same area ?
It's maybe not forbiden to ask if some have crossed the TPl150 above the often seen 1500/2000 Hz, i.e. above 3000 and more (but it's true, maybe OT has it's becomming an upper midrange discussion)
But of course, it is sure than some talentuous guy with the good XO and the well choosed upper treble (here the TPL150 because the topic) can make a good choice as well ! POC is everything !
Do you find it sounds as good as the Tang Band FR you use everyday, at least in the same area ?
It's maybe not forbiden to ask if some have crossed the TPl150 above the often seen 1500/2000 Hz, i.e. above 3000 and more (but it's true, maybe OT has it's becomming an upper midrange discussion)
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