IMO about all options has been mentioned.
Final choice depends to a large extent on how to work "downward".
I have chosen a dedicated midrange driver with XO around 300-400 Hz. High efficiency 15 inch bass unit to complete a more or less classic high efficiency 3-way.
When you opt for a 10 or even 12 inch bass-midrange driver (2-way with optional subwoofer) the picture looks different, more difficult it seems.
Final choice depends to a large extent on how to work "downward".
I have chosen a dedicated midrange driver with XO around 300-400 Hz. High efficiency 15 inch bass unit to complete a more or less classic high efficiency 3-way.
When you opt for a 10 or even 12 inch bass-midrange driver (2-way with optional subwoofer) the picture looks different, more difficult it seems.
More important that it breaks up in a pretty controlled way, without nasty peaks above 2 kHz.
I don't use the Audax. I just like it. As you know, I use the tang band w8-1772 in a horn. 250-8k Hz. Magnificent, glorious mid range, and a seamless crossover on both sides. I know it may not look like it sounds great, but you can be assured it does
Attachments
First choice is Audax HM210Z10 in a sort of open enclosure, not purely open baffle, but think of a baffle with acoustic damping at the back. The Qt of the driver suits this application.
The 8PE21's will be tried if the Audax would fail, but "on paper", because of the very low Qt, they would ask for a different load.
Horns are out of the question: no room to get a horn system integrate well in my listening room. Besides I am super sensitive to the coloration all horns introduce
.Hi Scott,
Yes I know you use the Tang Band, but as you know very well the Audaxs as well, I asked just to know the gap between the two in the common range where they can work (mid area).
@ Pieter: Ok Pieter, thanks for the inputt. I knew that a very low Qts suited better with the TPL150. But I really don't know where it comes to choose about Qts, mid-bass transition and kick with the lower driver and especially where is the best transition (so my questions, even if OT)
One may hesistate between many solution here to have a lively midbass, that's why I asked ! OB, Horn, direct horn, or even font loaded horn...
In the first beginning I was surprised to see the tpl150 could be XOed at 1500 with the very low Qts 12" from Beyma with Angelo's description, mostly because the beaming and the different way a 12" and a AMT move the air.
But the hatrd work of Lewinski, the good examples given by several members like Scott L, POOH and many others showed me it was more compllicated than I thought ! I finally asked myself if the tweeter should be the first choice and in the topic if one had to stay with the blessed 1500 to 2000 Hz XO to choose the driver below the TPL150...(and whatever the load : OB, horn, sealed, etc) ! Non talking about the around - 3dB bafle step with some front bafle.
Guys, it's always a pleasure to read you, thank you again for that.
Yes I know you use the Tang Band, but as you know very well the Audaxs as well, I asked just to know the gap between the two in the common range where they can work (mid area).
@ Pieter: Ok Pieter, thanks for the inputt. I knew that a very low Qts suited better with the TPL150. But I really don't know where it comes to choose about Qts, mid-bass transition and kick with the lower driver and especially where is the best transition (so my questions, even if OT)
One may hesistate between many solution here to have a lively midbass, that's why I asked ! OB, Horn, direct horn, or even font loaded horn...
In the first beginning I was surprised to see the tpl150 could be XOed at 1500 with the very low Qts 12" from Beyma with Angelo's description, mostly because the beaming and the different way a 12" and a AMT move the air.
But the hatrd work of Lewinski, the good examples given by several members like Scott L, POOH and many others showed me it was more compllicated than I thought ! I finally asked myself if the tweeter should be the first choice and in the topic if one had to stay with the blessed 1500 to 2000 Hz XO to choose the driver below the TPL150...(and whatever the load : OB, horn, sealed, etc) ! Non talking about the around - 3dB bafle step with some front bafle.
Guys, it's always a pleasure to read you, thank you again for that.
Last edited:
Besides I am super sensitive to the coloration all horns introduce
And what a nice colour it is
And what a nice colour it is
We "discussed" this before, and I guess (hope) you understand that it is IMHO.
No problem if you, and/or others, disagree.
Go ahead, pick your color
We "discussed" this before, and I guess (hope) you understand that it is IMHO.
No problem if you, and/or others, disagree.
Go ahead, pick your color
You know, we all have certain "sounds" that bother us. For me, it's nasty room reflections. I could NEVER be happy with a di-pole, or an open baffle set up. I also really hate that "box" sound. I'll be the first to admit, the big red horns you see in my picture do indeed exhibit a slight colouration, but what they give me in return with regard to dynamics and pin point imaging and the vast sound stage the entire system reproduces, I can live with it.
You know, we all have certain "sounds" that bother us. For me, it's nasty room reflections. I could NEVER be happy with a di-pole, or an open baffle set up. I also really hate that "box" sound. I'll be the first to admit, the big red horns you see in my picture do indeed exhibit a slight colouration, but what they give me in return with regard to dynamics and pin point imaging and the vast sound stage the entire system reproduces, I can live with it.
+1.
Room acoustics is very important.
Though my room is not that large, dimensions are "shoe-box" like, so rather benign; this is a big plus.
I tried dipole / open baffle, but I can't "live" with the lack of power (bandwidth) in the lowest octaves; their diffuse imaging however sounds not unlike what I experience in a concert hall.
What I am looking for in a high efficiency direct radiator system is dynamics "approaching" what horns can do, with the least possible colorations.
I don't use the Audax. I just like it. As you know, I use the tang band w8-1772 in a horn. 250-8k Hz. Magnificent, glorious mid range, and a seamless crossover on both sides. I know it may not look like it sounds great, but you can be assured it does
You have an amazing system, Scott. Maybe one of the best out there....
That was exactly what i also was looking for, and got it with the Beymas. They are superb.
Besides I am super sensitive to the coloration all horns introduce
Thats what i say since i introduced the TPL150 in my system. Before, i gave credence to who argued that they were able to eliminate horn coloration, and i thought , i had eliminated them as well . What a shock when i compared to the performance of the TPL150.... The difference is astronomical..... to say the least.
Horns, no more !!
True. That looks counterintuitive, indeed. But the commercial applications out there, adopting this combination and design, shows its a winning configuration.
Its a compromise with the least shortcomings. As stated a few times before, here, i regard it as a hudge advantage to have just two drivers covering almost all relevant frequency range. Unless you want to squibble with 3, 4 ways and complex crossovers and various drivers to try to get satisfying overall well integrated results. The more complex, the more difficult to get a performance that is satisfying. The simpler , the better, but not too simple.
I don't use the Audax. I just like it. As you know, I use the tang band w8-1772 in a horn. 250-8k Hz. Magnificent, glorious mid range, and a seamless crossover on both sides. I know it may not look like it sounds great, but you can be assured it does
Only now it dawned on me: wonder why nobody has tried that W8 as direct radiator below the TPL as midrange? I visited TB website and found they recommend this driver in a back horn enclosure, but direct radiator for the midrange up.
Great looking driver and specs/curves.
Scott: did you try it as direct radiator and preferred it in a horn?
Oh, sure did ! When I very first heard this driver, I knew i wanted it. We were comparing the 1808 vs the 1772 on an open baffle, and the 1772 had a better "tone" to my ears. I owned the 1808 and my friend owned the 1772, but we each liked the other unit, so we did a simple swap. He continues to use multiple 1808's on an open baffle, and I tried the 1772 in various configurations. Further listening revealed to me that the 1772's, left to their own merits, were down about 8db at 200hz, verses 800Hz. Well, that's goes right back to a topic I had just discussed [above] and I really don't care for that "thin analytical mid range sound". This is why TB recommends a back loaded horn, because said back load provides "lift" in the lower octaves. The large round red horns I use (Vintage 1931 Jensens) lift up the lower mid range octave, but, since it has such a large throat, leaves the upper mid range intact, with the penalty being a very focused sweet spot. I have a one listener system. That's only a challenge while hosting audio meetings
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/262687-rutchos-fullrange-measurements-database.html
Tang Band W8-1772 Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
Angelo, did you try the quicky 12" from Beyma in OB, even without bafle for a 300 Hz to 1600 Hz ? (I believe you could have a first null after 800 or 1000 Hz but maybe Worth to try if you can sacrifice 6 dB efficienty VS a subjective slam than no load OB gives !)! Here maybe Juhazi will catch one of my ear for punihment as it's certainly to hard to go above 800/1000 Hz with a non bafled 12" (and no EQ)?! (look at the Aino Gradient design)
If I remember Scott L use a horn but no load at the back of his horned 8" ! So no loaded driver with plannar above could be a subjective good match ?
Last edited:
Greetings, Eldam
I don't use a box, but the drivers are somewhat loaded. A short transmission line, I suppose. Short is just fine here because of the 250hz hi-pass. I don't care for open baffle or di-pole sound at all. In my humble opinion, open baffle loading for bass applications is the biggest sham since Tulip Bulb Mania.
