If you really want a wide listening angle, then you should be looking at a 3-way system. No wideband driver is going to give you a listening window that is anything short of "head in a vice" listening position. Move your head an inch, "aaand it's gone"...
Given your idea of quite considerable sensitivity, I'm not exactly sure it'll be accomplished with less than a couple of 15" bass drivers, a large-ish midrange and an accompanying horn and a compression driver for the high frequencies. Not a bad list of ingredients, though, if you prefer laughable dynamic capabilities. I'd start experimenting with crossover points at something like 250Hz and 1,5kHz, observing the directivities of each band and trying to get them to match as well as possible.
Still, a real 100dB/W/m sensitivity figure even through the band you've stated and even given room boost at lower frequencies is a real and an interesting challenge. It can be done, and there are many ways to skin this particular cat. How cheap can it be done? Now, that is a whole other question. I've heard a system going over that sensitivity rating, having a BMS coaxial compressor on a horn. I believe the BMS driver alone was something like over 600€ a piece... Wasn't bad, though.
I tend to agree, though, that PA drivers tend to be either bad or expensive. And sometimes both. But look for the gems, it'll be rewarding. And when you want sensitivity, there really is no replacement for displacement.
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Yes! You got it! It's supposed to be a fun challenge 🙂 hopefully sub 500€ total, including shipping and taxes for drivers alone.
4 * the box 15LB075-UW4 Speaker 15" is 164.72€ alone, but it might require more than the 200 liters volume per channel for bass if roll off starts at 40hz... Sensitivity would be quite good though, 96dbw/driver with a power stage per driver = just over 100db total/channel.
And what you are saying about off axis response is very correct, but I'm having some problems finding a proper midrange at these specs and price point, not to mention a compression driver, and that needs a horn too... Things are rolling out of budget at this point. Cheaper to go with a large fr/small array of mini drivers and add some tweeter at 7khz with maybe 1st order xo.
Maybe build a diamond array of 3fe25 with a tweeter in the middle?
My personal opinion about xo's in the 800-6500hz range should be left out of the discussion. But when you consider price it can be hard to add a compression driver at ~1.5khz
My mind: Use good, clean sounding speakers - good casing, tuned fullrange, some regardings how to build in the drivers - and it sounds beautiful everywhere. Not the frequence-response is important. The play-TOGETHER, the play as ONE is. Cause: The most signals are mono - a little bit more right or left. And a signal, as a tone, is A, ONE, com-plex of tones.
It is possible to tune big fullrange to get a bigger "frequence-window". But nobody knows. And it is not necessary, when clean.
And use good, clean playing amps. That is very important to get a not flat, not grey, not diffus performance. The most listen with flat, grey, diffus (but big window) speakers, complete frequence-response: noise,-) and must use rumbling, not subtile playing amps to get highs, mids, deeps. Something like "music".-)
It is possible to tune big fullrange to get a bigger "frequence-window". But nobody knows. And it is not necessary, when clean.
And use good, clean playing amps. That is very important to get a not flat, not grey, not diffus performance. The most listen with flat, grey, diffus (but big window) speakers, complete frequence-response: noise,-) and must use rumbling, not subtile playing amps to get highs, mids, deeps. Something like "music".-)
Thank you 🙂
Yes indeed, I must be insane to set such an unrealistic goal 🙂
But that is only 55hz and up, probably -6db too. And "only" 96dbw ;-)
Hmm... Again, challenging, and your budget might be too tight. Don't hang too tightly to it and let it cripple you.
Hmm... 18Sound HD125 + XT120 would be around 55,90€ at least here in Finland. Per channel that would be. Might take a 1,8kHz crossover point. Maybe some Eminence midrange..? Okay, 100dB/W might still be hard to achieve.
I used to think that leaving crossovers out of the most sensitive region was beneficial to good sound. And also used to be a proponent of wideband drivers. Then I got fed up with their limitations and started experimenting with coaxials. Done right they're as coherent as widebands/"fullranges" without the annoying limitations. And thanks to their directivity behaviour they give a surprisingly wide listening window.
But fortunately you can forget sensitive coaxes at that budget. But don't worry, for reasonable listening distances you can get most of the same coherence out of a 3-way if you mind individual driver directivities carefully. Or, in simpler terms, get the power response right. And maybe also the dynamic capabilities between drivers, that might also be a source of inconsistency through the crossover region.
I very much get what you are saying, I am currently using coaxial speakers, and they sound quite good off axis. I meant what I wrote, and it should not be part of this discussion, however small and large full range can sound very very different, larger drivers have such narrow sweet spot, but the feeling is much more dynamic especially without filters, sadly they often do need filters or eq to lessen the negative properties.
No, the limitations still stand, nothing is changed, the ultimate goal is 100dbw 40hz-10khz there are no restrictions on xo frequencies and so on other than "it must sound comfortable", but I will accept getting as close as possible. Like mentioned previously in this thread "there is no budget", only slightly silly unrealistic goals. I was prompted to name budget restrictions, but they are merely unrealistic guidelines. Cheap is the goal, as cheap as possible. 🙂
No matter what the end result will be, it is bound to be some form of compromise
These data are usually -8 or -10dB. And yes, these are good value for the money. But that doesn't make them good, I wouldn't recommend them for home use.
All loudspeakers are some sort of a compromise. Some compromises sound better, some worse.
Now, I do love a good challenge. But as there is a difference between as simple as possible and as possible as is meaningful... Well, as cheap as possible and as cheap as is meanigful isn't any different.
Hitting the 100dB/W mark - to me - means hitting it with a passive solution. Anything else, including the use of DSP's is simply cheating. And getting there with your stated budget - 250€ per channel - is challenging, to put it pretty. Might be doable, but I'm not quite sure.
Might be that you'll either be giving up efficiency for price, or sound quality for efficiency. I'd maybe give up a couple of dB of efficiency for better quality.
Nevertheless. Interesting, challenging, and just maybe doable. Not quite sure about the doable part at your budget. Challenges are fun.
Yes, "might be doable", that was the thought that triggered this thread. 🙂
2 x 15LF075-UW4 per channel is already 99dbw on account of doubling the surface area, louder when looking at it as 2.83v, so close enough. 12-250 TC is around 98dbw and I found some real life measurements here: FANE 12-250tc FULL RANGERS - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 4
One possibillity is cutting off the whizzer and using it with a tweeter from maybe 2khz? It is among the best options I've seen among high spl drivers. and 2khz might help on finding a suitable tweeter at the right price.
98-99dbw is more than good enough for me, this just started out with "might be doable" after all 🙂
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The Fane Sovereign 12-200 also might be relevant
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What about this driver D.18.1500.16.TI - Nag?o?nienie STX and something like a 18 Sound XT1464 and the a suitable bass driver for a 2-way?
This bass was mentioned in the Beyond the Ariel thread LF Pressed Chassis / Ferrite - TF1530 - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
This bass was mentioned in the Beyond the Ariel thread LF Pressed Chassis / Ferrite - TF1530 - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
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for 200L boxes you have to cut your own wood from your own forest or stole the plywoods.
it´s 100-150€ for boxes
The requirement of 100dB at 2.83v 1m and 40Hz is not easy. I have seen drivers mentioned but any simulations of drivers in an alignment that does so without being a TH or BR? I think it cannot be done unless one used a 100dB driver with a suitably designed FLH (bass horn). Volume will be bigger than 200L to achieve that kind of sensitivity and extension. 400L to 600L territory. Maybe I am wrong but I have been working on a similar requirement for months. And btw, the drivers that can do this are not cheap.
Take a look at Fane Collossus C18XS
Take a look at Fane Collossus C18XS
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I am considering well braced 15mm OSB.
XRK971: BR was what I had in mind (or rather, starting to lean towards). More complex designs demand more material and therefore have higher weight.
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Oh, and the 200 liter limit is about +/-20%, I consider the red line to be 250 liters (maybe orange at 240?). Still very unlikely :-D
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More membrane, less casing - my mind.
Casings, hundreds of litre, brutto, netto, wooden material, are not stabile enough to get a clean tone. That does rumble however, measurable 40 Hz, but is a katastrophe in cleanness, clearness.
Or do cement, build a stone-case. That will run pretty well.
Casings, hundreds of litre, brutto, netto, wooden material, are not stabile enough to get a clean tone. That does rumble however, measurable 40 Hz, but is a katastrophe in cleanness, clearness.
Or do cement, build a stone-case. That will run pretty well.
Depends on whether it has to be 100dB/W in a free environment, or in a room. Two 15" drivers side by side utilising both room boost and floor boost might hit the mark. Or just maybe a single 18". Not sure though, and given the budget this is on the verge of impossible. 97dB should be quite doable, but those last 3dB of extra efficiency might be too tough to squeeze out.
But yeah, that project I mentioned hearing that reached just a tad over a 100dB/W had a pair of 18Sound 15" drivers per side, and they don't come cheap. Can't remember the exact type and there was little documentation done on this project. It might have been 15NMB420, and that's 280€ a piece here in Finland. Bye bye to that 500€ target price...
My personal opinion is that this fabled "room gain" everyone keeps talking about should not be accounted for. It is an enormous variable, and there is no "golden average" good enough or relevant enough to account for it, because then people should start talking about "room loss" as well. It is just reflections from the various surfaces that often cause phase variations in the signal and therefore sometimes can be perceived as an increase in volume on certain frequencies (and loss on others). The most reasonable as far as I can tell is just accounting for half space (2/pi), but that is not optimal either.
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Now, if I could get enough economic muscle to build my The End (ultimate form of High End) stereo first, and then build a new house around my stereo! That would be a different story. But that is not going to happen anytime soon.
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It's the sound that travels in air then extinguishes, while another sound takes its place. If the precedent is not totally extinguished, it superimposes on the other thus adding and making it louder; this happens specially with low notes having high energy content
see also:
The Schroeder Frequency: A Show and Tell, Part 1 | Sound & Vision
500 € (example):
- 2 x 2 Celestion K12H-100TC, 320 €
- rest for very stabil casings, terminals, cheap thin! wire, some damping (used t-shirts,-) - do NOT use common plastic-wool or foam! a cartridge of glue/silicon to tune the membranes
- or a dipol-casing. All casings as little as possible.
Deeps, 40 Hz, are a result of room. Better less deeps or clean deeps than linear but ugly, dirty,-) The most do interpret rumbling casings for deep tones,-!!! Cause we do listen very very very seldom good, clean re-produced subs.-! The most never.-!!!
- 2 x 2 Celestion K12H-100TC, 320 €
- rest for very stabil casings, terminals, cheap thin! wire, some damping (used t-shirts,-) - do NOT use common plastic-wool or foam! a cartridge of glue/silicon to tune the membranes
- or a dipol-casing. All casings as little as possible.
Deeps, 40 Hz, are a result of room. Better less deeps or clean deeps than linear but ugly, dirty,-) The most do interpret rumbling casings for deep tones,-!!! Cause we do listen very very very seldom good, clean re-produced subs.-! The most never.-!!!
At moment I would build casings:
Four cubes, ca. 40 x 40 x 40, hard stiffened, backside removeable (changeable closed, bass-reflex, dipol) - parameters, tsp as example, are not necessary.
Stands four planks, open side in front, to prevent reflexions.
So you can everytime widener the system. So you can regard many circumstances and tune.
Four cubes, ca. 40 x 40 x 40, hard stiffened, backside removeable (changeable closed, bass-reflex, dipol) - parameters, tsp as example, are not necessary.
Stands four planks, open side in front, to prevent reflexions.
So you can everytime widener the system. So you can regard many circumstances and tune.