Budget 40-10k+hz 100db/w planning

[KaffiMann]

My experiences:
Better to build some little casings than a big: it does shorten the resonances and reflections. And it is a mobile.-)
Brace by connecting the opposite planks by bars.
No mass, but rigid, stable: thin planks (max. 18 mm), more connections of the opposite, parallel planks: distance circa 10 cm! You would not need linoleum or bitumen than (damp not deeps, but wooden-mid-grey-grainy-flat-roaring: translate these "mids" into deeps - more balanced).
Volume within the (closed) casing is as loud as on the outside: to use the inside as mechanical amplificator is usual, is fine for looking-measurement, but not clean for listening-measurement. Do much more damp the inside. Do not use plasticwool. Better the foam. More better textile.
My experiences.

I agree on open cell foam or textile, I have some leftover thick wool (real wool) felt, loose 2cm thick.

Edit:
ICG: Do not understand how I missed the 8FE200, I've been looking at every driver but that. guess it *could* work with something like Beyma T2030. Though that is lower sensitivity. It would be more expensive than the 3fe25, but it is a viable option. *looking for tweeters*

Do not think the 3fe25 would be significantly outperformed though and impedance is similar when comparing 4x 16 ohm version, the 8FE200 is not 95dbw, maybe 93, so that makes it 99db/2.83v in paralell, not that it matters. Anyway, it is still easier to find a tweeter to go with 3fe25.

Edit2:
Faital Pro HF100 looks like a stellar driver at this price point! Will need a good but cheap horn... Now it's out to grab a few beers with a couple of neighbours. I will probably air the problem there, not that anyone really care, but sometimes it's good for the brainstorming.

 

[ICG]

Do not think the 3fe25 would be significantly outperformed though and impedance is similar when comparing 4x 16 ohm version, the 8FE200 is not 95dbw, maybe 93, so that makes it 99db/2.83v in paralell, not that it matters. Anyway, it is still easier to find a tweeter to go with 3fe25.

With 4 16 Ohm 3FE25 you'll land at 96dB, the 2 8FE200 are at 99dB. So you have to double the power (which is +3dB) to get to the same spl. Every 3FE25 got a rated power of 20W, which makes 80W RMS the 4 3FE25 max out at 107,08dB RMS. The 8FE200 is rated at 130W RMS wich makes 260W RMS with two speakers. That gives the 8" already 10dB more dynamic. The two 8FE200 have a Sd of 382mm² and a Xmax of 4,67mm and the four small 3FE25 have 120,8cm² Xmax 1,83mm. So no, there's no way in hell the four 3FE25 could in any way make up to the performance, let alone outperform then in any possible way. The 2 of the 8FE200 will have a maximum dynamic range which is a whopping 12dB higher - at least!

Faital Pro HF100 looks like a stellar driver at this price point! Will need a good but cheap horn... Now it's out to grab a few beers with a couple of neighbours. I will probably air the problem there, not that anyone really care, but sometimes it's good for the brainstorming.

Yes, the HF100 is a good driver, good choice. The 18S XT 120 is a good combination or if you prefer a narrower dispersion, the prv audio wg16-25 seem to be the cheapest reasonable choice.

 

[KaffiMann]

I get 97db/2.83v, but yes, the 8ohm 2x paralell is much better. The 8fe200 does look better, and the hf100 very good. but I am concerned how many places parts are ordered from. Like previously mentioned each package delivered costs around 30euro to get through customs +25℅ on all cost including shipping. Much cheaper to get everything from 1 source, 2 are ok but depends on shipping. And off axis performance must be "not horrible"

This will most likely be fed by 2xLM4780 per channel on 48v battery banks. So not much power around.

Edit:
If ordering all the stuff for the tops from bluearan the Fane Sovereign 12-200 looks like a better bet for mid, but then maybe the hf 100 might have to work down to 15-1800hz somewhere. 198.62£ +vat and shipping for the 12-200, hf 100 and lth 102

 

[ICG]

The lowest the HF100 can go is 2kHz, the resonance is immediately below that (1,7kHz), the distortion rises very quickly below 2kHz and the decay will be delayed a lot. So no, going lower is no option, you'd have to use a driver with a bigger voice coil than 25mm / 1".

Edit: I just want to mention the LM4780 doesn't like impedances below 4 Ohm.

 

[KaffiMann]

The lowest the HF100 can go is 2kHz, the resonance is immediately below that (1,7kHz), the distortion rises very quickly below 2kHz and the decay will be delayed a lot. So no, going lower is no option, you'd have to use a driver with a bigger voice coil than 25mm / 1".

Edit: I just want to mention the LM4780 doesn't like impedances below 4 Ohm.

I know. 4 ohm is the limit, which is why i've always mentioned 4 ohm loads, I can add as many amps as needed but would prefer to keep it to max 4 output stages per channel, 2xLM4780 gives me 4 output stages, and is perfect to combine with battery supply, will be dead quiet. And HF100 is not made for <2khz, you are stating the obvious. Problem is 2khz might be a bit high for a 12", and a larger compression driver is expensive. I could calculate 4th order bessel to make up for it, but would prefer to keep filters at 2nd order if at all possible.

 

[ICG]

Well, there are still some options, even for much bigger HF drivers. The Kenford Comp 50 are a good example. They can go down to 1,5kHz and they sound quite good, the high end isn't as detailed as of the HF100. And you have to use a completely different horn (or an adapter) since it's a screw-on type driver. I've used them myself in the past and would buy them again. They improve with some little, easy and very cheap mods.

 

[KaffiMann]

hmmmm...
Decision time is not over yet.
Just checked with Boutique haut parleurs et audio DIY and a pair of each of these: Fane SOVEREIGN 15-500, Beyma CD1014Fe, and the matching Beyma TD365 are: € 429,92 including postage! According the online import calculator of the post office the total sum will be 5 446,05 NOK which is about 575.08 € This allows for 1200hz xo frequency without compromising very much.

Just did a quick checkup on the box, and it seems to fit, phase looks slightly better even, down 1db from 50hz (~98,5dbw) to 40hz (~97,5dbw), 100hz is exactly 99dbw, have to change some alignments tomorrow after work since they should be standing if using this setup.

 

[cumbb]

To bolster:
Built for a dance-studio, 300 m2, 1200 m3. Dipole. 2,15 tall, 40 cm front, 45 cm deep, bottom 50 x 50. 2 x 6 DY 1256 (translated: 6 x 18" subs and 6 pairs pa-monitors incl. 12" drivers, but homogenous). Modified. 2 x 2 "Watt" (of course se or bal. se or any little T or D or B - NO!!! complex complementary-pp!!!), and you are happy,-) Complete 680 €. That is a cheap variance - more budget and I would suggest 2 x 6 cubes - with DY 1256,-)
But! no little rooms and at least 4 metres distance for listeners!
I suggest to forget all the listed/listened common not-complex parameters and theories about speakers and amps.-))))))))) Very clean, rhythm and soundstage nearly perfect - compared with the previous "pa-********", that does rumble and roar only...-)))))))

 

[KaffiMann]

To bolster:
Built for a dance-studio, 300 m2, 1200 m3. Dipole. 2,15 tall, 40 cm front, 45 cm deep, bottom 50 x 50. 2 x 6 DY 1256 ... Complete 680 €. That is a cheap variance - more budget and I would suggest 2 x 6 cubes - with DY 1256,-)
But! no little rooms and at least 4 metres distance for listeners!
...

I am sorry, but currently I do not have the luxury of placing my speakers in the middle of the room, there is no dance studio to place them in, and listening distance is 2,5-3m


To anyone who might be interested in the Sovereign 15-500, see picture. Outer dimensions ca 95,5 x 55,7 x 43,7cm If using 18mm material, and accounting for 2 pieces of 1,8*2cm strips on all 4 sides of the enclosure. lower port is 10cm tall with 1 piece of 1,8 x 10cm material accounted for in the middle, should have some thick felt on sides for damping.

The tweeter or compression driver + horn can live on top of the enclosure, maybe on a tiny 1" thick oak baffle?

 

[KaffiMann]

Alright...

I apologize for the delay.

I've never abandoned this subject, just been trying a lot of simulations with lots of different drivers. After much thought and consideration, I've come to the conclusion that I will not go this route at this time of life, maybe in another 10-15 years. But nevertheless, I t was always my intention to follow up on the thread and try as best as possible to get close to the original goal, it has been interesting.

The hard part, subs:
The closest I managed to get at 4ohm is 99,9950db/36,75hz with 2 subs in paralell, simulation volume is 139,405 liters each. If using 2 ohms then well... I just cant keep moving the goal so the cheapest winner is Dayton Audio PA380-8 15" Pro Woofer.

Amount Price Name of component
4 $75.77 Dayton Audio PA380-8 15" Pro Woofer
2 $39.90 Dayton Audio D250P-8 1" Polyimide Compression Horn Driver
2 $34.30 Denovo Audio SEOS-12 Waveguide 2/3 Bolt Matte with 1-3/8"-18 TPI Adapter
4 $29.00 Celestion Eight 15 8" 15W Guitar Speaker 8 Ohm

Order Subtotal $567.66 before shipping. Also a plus that all of it can come from the same place.

The Seos 12 waveguide should work well, it's certainly popular. The Dayton driver seems to be a possible match with both the horn and the Celestion guitar drivers, The Celestion 8" do not have a huge power handling, but power handling is not a priority, spl/w is, and it should be possible to just notch down some peaks and it will hopefully still be at 100db/2,83v when using 2 per channel.

Again, this may not be the end of this thread, but I will personally settle for a simpler and cheaper solution than specified here, because that was my hidden agenda with this thread. Going down in price but increase perceived fidelity. Learning.

It would be interesting to see if anyone else can come closer to the original goal, it is a tough, maybe even impossible challenge after all. Can anyone beat 99,9950db/2,83v at 36,75hz in 4ohm and 2 x 139,405 liter volume? Was thinking of stacking this system, sub-mid-tweet-sub, would have a reasonable footprint *insert evil grin*

Best regards
Kent

 

[KaffiMann]

Here we go. Nearing completion of the boxes. All the Fane Sovereign 15-400 and FC152 are in house.

Have to finish bracing and glue on the sides of the bass boxes and get the sheets of 12mm ply on all the fronts. The subs or what you call it are at ca 128 liters each. The boxes for the FC152's are ca 80 liters each (sealed).

 

[KaffiMann]

Here is the sim for the Fane 15-400's, two for each channel, hence the 2/parallel. The boxes are made within 0 to +2mm tolerance. It's completely dark outside now after work, so if I am going to get them done at all I have to get some flood lights. Hoping to do the surface treatment in the weekend if everything goes according to plan. Surface treatment will be teak oil and silk matte clear coat. The fronts will be very good looking 12mm poplar ply for ease of bracing, so total thickness of front baffle will be 27mm, and the sides/rear will be showing the 15mm OSB with somewhat simple bracing on the inside.

 

[KaffiMann]

Progress is slow but good.
Had a listen to the 15-400 box yesterday after the kids fell asleep, bass is very smooth and well defined, but the drivers need a flex workout. Build quality of the drivers is very good.

Aiming to get started with surface treatment before the weekend, but the weekend is packed with activity so it will probably be mid next week before finishing up, hoping for milder weather so I can take them outside and do measurements then.

 

[KaffiMann]

We have liftoff. I had to give up, at least until spring. Will do the surface treatment then. Too cold and snow outside, and my trim router bit broke, need some more parts also to hide the ugly corners. But the speakers sound fantastic, even at low level there is a sensation of impact that is very engaging.

Wrote this same info in the thread about the fane fc152 in the fullrange forum, but this is about reaching the goal of this thread, I got to where I wanted to be, and with what I believe is the most bang for the buck route. It sounds awesome!

 

[KaffiMann]

In the absence of proper measurement facilities, I have done some measurements at 42cm distance from the cone center of my right side speakers. There is hardly any room interaction on this distance.

In this picture the measurements (all 1/12th oct smoothing) are as follows:
Pink: FC152 only, no EQ or other settings.
Red: FC152 only, no EQ but a 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Yellow-ish: FC152 + dual 15-400, no EQ but a 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Green: And last, it's the listening position, with FC152, dual 15-400 and the same 3db LP filter at 5khz, nothing else.

Here is the Unsmoothed 42cm measurements:
Cyan: FC152 + dual 15-400 and nothing else. (Blends with the Blue over 1khz)
Green: FC152 only and 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Dark Blue: FC152 in it's natural state, ca 80 liter sealed box.

Overall I am very happy with the results, the 15-400's give me more frequency extension than I'd hope for in my listening position. The FC152's are toed in slightly to give a broader sweetspot, when toed in it sounds nearly the same in any seat, even if you are directly in front of one.
There would not be any problem at all to use further EQ and filters to flatten the response, but when comparing the different files I tend to prefer the slightly dampened top end over most heavy EQ settings.

 

[KaffiMann]

Felt the need to loosen up the Fane 15-400 drivers.
Put on 16hz sine wave to get a little bit of cone movement. Did not expect to hear the sound, it was a little bit uncomfortable. I decided to just let it stay on during dinner, we had an interesting discussion aboutlow frequency sound, heard the glasses and plates rattle in the kitchen shelves, then my 7 year old ran down the stairs, yelled "Now I know what sound you meant daddy!" and just turned it up much louder, there was still a lot of headroom on both drivers and amp so no problem, but I was concerned there for a moment, as this is below the calculated port tuning.

 

[KaffiMann]

I had a friend over, haven't met for years.
He's spending a lot of money on 2nd hand high end products.
Don't know if he heard all what he wanted/ expected from my budget, un-eq'ed 2way setup, but he seemed a bit taken off-guard. He's heard a lot of good quality brand products and also decent diy line array builds, but to give a quote "I've never heard anything like this before" it was the impact of the music. Big speakers that dig deep, nothing quite like it. Subs are crossed over at 712 hz, and the 15" fr is crossed over at 100hz. There's a certain impact, at any volume setting.

He also quite liked the seas fu10rb with double seas 6.5" per channel, and the cheap tpa3250 was also impressive. He's spending a lot more on his amps, to say the least. He also quite liked the mark audio 10.2 setup in the kids room, want's something similar in his office. Tried steering him towards the alpair 6 or 7, we'll see what happens.

I did not ask for any opinions though, he seemed a bit stuck in some thought process, so it's probably all good.

 

[KaffiMann]

There has been some interest in harmonic distortion of the 150-300TC (previously FC152). Yesterday the kids watched some kids-show upstairs and played mario (IE not jumping around and screaming), and there where no meetings to attend etc.

So even if the noise floor is not optimal (not 100% quiet, a heat pump and computer fans closeby probably influence the measurements somewhat, in adittion to family noise sources being present), comparing the left and right channel in-room might give some indications.
I am currently experimenting with: NOT using any form of xo between the "subs" and the 15" fullranger, there is only the EQ settings in Voicemeeter Banana, EQ settings are identical for each channel.
Remember the speakers are measured in-room and very close to side walls, measurements are ca 110cm from cone, so variations are expected.

Here's the EQ settings from VM Banana:

Here's the SPL + distortion for left channel:

Here's the SPL + distortion for right channel:

Here's L+R SPL measurements on top of each other:

Smoothing is 1/12th oct, but there is not a huge amount of deviation on unsmoothed graphs, it just looks more tidy with 1/12th oct.

(I am just ridiculously happy with the bass response, hardly any eq at all and that smooth. I have found that tilting a downwards slope from low to high frequency gives a very bass heavy response, it's way too much, so prefer more flat curves when the setups digs this low, on my other not quite as bass capable setups I like having that downwards tilt.)

 

[schiller]

Short summary 2019.03.01

........
If there's any interest at all in my box design, the Fane 15-600 Pro (do not use the LF version!) is a better driver in most aspects except price. Many other drivers can be used, it is a reasonably flexible design.

I know that is a very old topic, i saw it during a search for the 15-600LF (not the pro version), but since the parameters of the 15-600LF suit my project, why not use it? is there something wrong with the driver which i must be aware of?

Best regards and christmas wishes.

 

[KaffiMann]

It's not completely unsuitable, just not optimal. The values are a bit off, and there's a lot of other drivers better suited for subwoofer duty IMO.
In short, I'd use the 15-600LF in some OB or closed box solution without hesitation, not optimal for semi-compact TL/BR.

What other drivers are accessible for you?

Edit, if you're ordering from Thomann the "the box 15LB075-UW4" works just fine in the same box. Cheaper than the Fane 15-600LF.
the box 15LB075-UW4 Speaker 15" – Musikhaus Thomann