I use some Beyma 8AG/N + Comp-34S compression driver for the mid/top paired by a 6/12dB xo.
For the bass I have 15LF075-UW4:
http://www.elderaudio.com/products/Loudspeakers/LFSpeaker/2009/15LB075-UW4.html
For the bass I have 15LF075-UW4:
http://www.elderaudio.com/products/Loudspeakers/LFSpeaker/2009/15LB075-UW4.html
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Thank you for that doctormord, interesting 15" driver at 4ohm and 96dbw, is that real? 48 euro each from thomann, very good price for a cast frame woofer. A bit difficult to find measured response, but I will hope that the hornresp simulations are not far off.
Hmmmm. Was originally considering xo for the bass at 2-300hz. The 8AG/N (and it's bigger siblings) have a -5db valley at 200-400hz... But there are no rules about to disturb us here. There are no set limits, other than some unrealistic fantasy goal.
Reconsidering some options the pro 15-600lf *could* be crossed over at 500, but the closest (ribbon) tweeter not far from budget needs xo a bit above 1khz. Browsing about for a while moves my focus to the Seas H1597 FA22RCZ fullrange, a bit above budget (just a tiny bit below that very ribbon tweeter), but can be picked up locally. An amusing thought that these drivers could overlap without xo (!) but it is a bit unrealistic that it might work. But I think it could make a very fun 2way maybe like an overgrown big brother of the LX mini :-D
Only with maybe some onken like solution for the woofer.
Hmmmm. Was originally considering xo for the bass at 2-300hz. The 8AG/N (and it's bigger siblings) have a -5db valley at 200-400hz... But there are no rules about to disturb us here. There are no set limits, other than some unrealistic fantasy goal.
Reconsidering some options the pro 15-600lf *could* be crossed over at 500, but the closest (ribbon) tweeter not far from budget needs xo a bit above 1khz. Browsing about for a while moves my focus to the Seas H1597 FA22RCZ fullrange, a bit above budget (just a tiny bit below that very ribbon tweeter), but can be picked up locally. An amusing thought that these drivers could overlap without xo (!) but it is a bit unrealistic that it might work. But I think it could make a very fun 2way maybe like an overgrown big brother of the LX mini :-D
Only with maybe some onken like solution for the woofer.
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The Thomann the box 15LB075-UW4 is a good and regarding the price unbeatable chassis. The photo on the Elder page is definitely not of the 15" chassis though.
The Seas H1597-08 FA22RCZ starts at 300Hz with 90dB. That is by far not enough, and to top that, the suggested Beyma 8AG/N and Kenford Comp-34S and the crossover parts are still cheaper than the Seas. If you want that high efficiency drivers, you have to go one size up otherwise it will be expensive to meet all your requirements. A cheap option would be the Fane SOVEREIGN 10-125 or the Faital Pro 10FE200.
The Seas H1597-08 FA22RCZ starts at 300Hz with 90dB. That is by far not enough, and to top that, the suggested Beyma 8AG/N and Kenford Comp-34S and the crossover parts are still cheaper than the Seas. If you want that high efficiency drivers, you have to go one size up otherwise it will be expensive to meet all your requirements. A cheap option would be the Fane SOVEREIGN 10-125 or the Faital Pro 10FE200.
Yes, the picture on the Elder page is wrong, but the data is right. These chassis are really a good bang for the buck. Made heavy and solid - I use them in a BR can.
You may you use some Kenfort low/mid for the Beyma. You'll loose some dB overall but gain some in the 200-400Hz range.
You may you use some Kenfort low/mid for the Beyma. You'll loose some dB overall but gain some in the 200-400Hz range.
Yes, but the Fane Sovereign 12-250TC seems a bit better, except for off axis response, could just use it as a mid driver though.
Celestion TF0818 8R seems like a good mid driver? 94dbw at 8 ohm.with a 300hz 2nd order bessel you'd get a nice "comfort bump" transition to the woofer. It's a bit difficult to find cheap mid drivers with smooth response that can be crossed high (ca 2khz), or rather, it's hard to find cheap high sensitivity tweeters that can be crossed low...
Edit:Fane Sovereign Pro 8-225 also rolls off nicely on the top end.
Edit:Fane Sovereign Pro 8-225 also rolls off nicely on the top end.
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Dynamic results of cleanness ("piano-forte"),-!
My mind:
- no multiway
- no big wooden rumbling casings
- no 1000 W (or more,-) complementer-pp-amps
(except you want, as the most, listen highs-mids-bass, not music)
For mobile PA I would suggest, at moment, some Eminence Beta12LT or Celestion K12H-100TC or Senon YD 1256 U (I do use 2 x 6 at moment) as dipol. NO crossover or any other stuff. With some modifications,-) With clean, clear sounding amps - big se or any simple! Class B or T or D. NO complementer-pp Class A or AB,-!
For not-mobile do build stone-casings,-)))
My mind:
- no multiway
- no big wooden rumbling casings
- no 1000 W (or more,-) complementer-pp-amps
(except you want, as the most, listen highs-mids-bass, not music)
For mobile PA I would suggest, at moment, some Eminence Beta12LT or Celestion K12H-100TC or Senon YD 1256 U (I do use 2 x 6 at moment) as dipol. NO crossover or any other stuff. With some modifications,-) With clean, clear sounding amps - big se or any simple! Class B or T or D. NO complementer-pp Class A or AB,-!
For not-mobile do build stone-casings,-)))
Thank you for that cumbb. I did not know about the celestionk12h-100tc.
I will once again admit to an affinity towards big fr/wideband drivers, and like you I think that the sound is much more detailed without any filters anywhere. Feels clean and uncluttered somehow.
This is just for personal home use though 🙂 but it is intended to inspire certain people that might be interested in building more rugged pa versions.
Anyway, there are no restrictions on how many drivers can be used, but the more drivers, the less money is available to use per driver, potentially lowering build quality of the components.
I will once again admit to an affinity towards big fr/wideband drivers, and like you I think that the sound is much more detailed without any filters anywhere. Feels clean and uncluttered somehow.
This is just for personal home use though 🙂 but it is intended to inspire certain people that might be interested in building more rugged pa versions.
Anyway, there are no restrictions on how many drivers can be used, but the more drivers, the less money is available to use per driver, potentially lowering build quality of the components.
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The dy-1256u is one of the finest drivers. My mind. My fafourite for big stuff,-! Some little mods and build-in-regards, as (in) all the other speakers ... most most not regard: clamp the speakers, ONE electric circuit, damping the membrane ...
I love the dy-1256u!
I love the dy-1256u!
The 12H-100TC does not go very high up, neither does the Eminence, the Fane Sovereign 12-250TC got a much better high end. You could ofcourse go for a supertweeter, even if you say 10k is enough for you, that's probably a better solution.
You can't compare the measurements across the different manufacturers, they were measured differently (esp. the off-axis).
Tweeters are not necessary - if you do use good, clean sounding amps. No doubt! The homogenity is much much more important. Separate tweeters destroy music, except you do use dirty playing amps. You would use tweeters. The most do,-)
89 dB - much more important than dB/W/m is cleanness - (for) dynamic.
Or double, and double the double, and you will get better direct-sound, better for big stuff (relation: rumbling and resonating case to chassis too), better for big resounding rooms, better for the feeling of much much moved air and controlled air.
Little rooms need little cases for exact reproducing!
Ergo: Two or four 1256 sound much much much more than one more expensive and louder speaker.
All the measurement is not (very) important, cause all speakers must be modded, cause the casings are more important for good sound, cause a build-in, physically meaningful, is not regarded by the most, not regarded while the measurements, cause different amps are not regarded, cause the ear-important measurements are not done, and more.
89 dB - much more important than dB/W/m is cleanness - (for) dynamic.
Or double, and double the double, and you will get better direct-sound, better for big stuff (relation: rumbling and resonating case to chassis too), better for big resounding rooms, better for the feeling of much much moved air and controlled air.
Little rooms need little cases for exact reproducing!
Ergo: Two or four 1256 sound much much much more than one more expensive and louder speaker.
All the measurement is not (very) important, cause all speakers must be modded, cause the casings are more important for good sound, cause a build-in, physically meaningful, is not regarded by the most, not regarded while the measurements, cause different amps are not regarded, cause the ear-important measurements are not done, and more.
How doesn't a "good" amp need tweeters? If the amp is flat up to I.e. 20kHz and your "normal" speaker can only reproduce up to 12kHz, a tweeter is needed (even its only doing "super-highs"). Where does this belongs to an amp?
That's exactly the point. No amp can ever make up for what's lost anywhere in the chain, especally in the last and most important part in the chain - the loudspeaker. A supertweeter can add so much more detail, room impression and 'attack', impulse response. It's okay if you don't want a supertweeter but you miss a lot of the music if you neglect the highest 1-2 octaves, even if your hearing isn't that good anymore.
A "good" amp does sound clean. The most do not. I suggest, for example, a se, may be with "active" or "dynamic" current, not much stages, not much "power". Good psu. To compare. To learn about speaker-amp-sources-relations.
Most of others do noise, do sound diffus with much curtains. No dynamic, no attack, no contour, no "body"... These do need their tweeters,-) To "ADD so much more detail, room impression and 'attack', impulse response"-)))
Most of others do noise, do sound diffus with much curtains. No dynamic, no attack, no contour, no "body"... These do need their tweeters,-) To "ADD so much more detail, room impression and 'attack', impulse response"-)))
The reason I stated the goal as 40hz to 10khz is that sub 40hz takes a lot of space on high efficiency systems, and proper off axis response above 10khz can be very hard to get right, either you have rising reponse on axis to make up for it or you go for flat and natural roll off. It must be comfortable to listen to from all angles. I have invited people over for listening sessions before, and tried rolling off steep after 10k without anyone seeming to notice very much what was missing.
Also, I find it that it can be acceptable to filter in a tweeter around 7khz to optimize reponse in the top end, lower than this will cause listening fatigue and "sound wrong" very often.
Also, I find it that it can be acceptable to filter in a tweeter around 7khz to optimize reponse in the top end, lower than this will cause listening fatigue and "sound wrong" very often.
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I think I know what you are talking about cumbb, like hearing the same lm3886 on switch mode, linear and battery rails, very very different on each, noise floor of the psu can have a lot to say about the perceived performance of an amplifier, even if you cannot measure it properly, there must be some sort of interference. Another thing is that arrays can have lower loss per distance, so more drivers are indeed very different from few drivers, even on the same measured sensitivity.
And icg, I really like the Fane drivers, and that 12" fr is a top contender, but I do not want to be stamped as a Fane Fanboy ;-) that 12 also might need some eq to to from good to great, not a problem really, but everything that can make things simpler count, less is more.
And icg, I really like the Fane drivers, and that 12" fr is a top contender, but I do not want to be stamped as a Fane Fanboy ;-) that 12 also might need some eq to to from good to great, not a problem really, but everything that can make things simpler count, less is more.
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... That did not make any sense for me at least.
Anyway, the box 15LB075-UW4 is impossible to compete with, the price is just too good, you can double it up 2 for each channel and still be under the price of most other contenders. And so far I am having some trouble de iding if it should be the 16ohm 3fe25 Faital in a four driver 2*2 or diamond mini array, or the 12-250 tc Fane.
Anyway, the box 15LB075-UW4 is impossible to compete with, the price is just too good, you can double it up 2 for each channel and still be under the price of most other contenders. And so far I am having some trouble de iding if it should be the 16ohm 3fe25 Faital in a four driver 2*2 or diamond mini array, or the 12-250 tc Fane.
Firstly, I have to say, most amps indeed DO sound clean while used within their operating parameters. But that's not the topic I was talking about. Secondly: Okay, that was probably not expressed right. The super-tweeters don't really 'add' any 'sound', they reproduce what should be in the sound anyway (compared to a wide band speaker with dull top end).