Took the time to read some reviews and what is on Tekton site and find several things amiss. When mentioning how critical it is to toe in properly, is a laugh, the polar bites, regardless of toe in. The 10dB drop in level at 2k is that a miss print in every graph? The tweeters are not up to the task at such low frequencies and the ringing @5k blows. Then there is that anomaly @400, doesn't look like the room, tho could be, perhaps the enclosure itself and it's roughly -12dB hole that might as well be 12' deep, ouch.
Fact the baffle has virtually no roundovers will impact response. Think those tweeters would be better suited to matchup with a pair of 6.5" better. I know they would, even the rt4001 amt's beat them.
The efficiency rating is exaggerated, by roughly 1.5dB, so start thinking 96.5dB/1w/m.
Shame the Great Heil doesn't have a bit more efficiency, ehhh old school magnets = drawback.
Have a couple of other ideas about waveguiding them together, but that's nuts, they just shouldn't be expected to lift up anything at 1.6k without serious distortion IMHO. Better match would be some 2- 3"ers with an efficiency of 93, good luck with finding that, alone done well.
An ejmmlc 500 elliptical horn and a good compression driver could do.
Will be on the lookout 🙂
Fact the baffle has virtually no roundovers will impact response. Think those tweeters would be better suited to matchup with a pair of 6.5" better. I know they would, even the rt4001 amt's beat them.
The efficiency rating is exaggerated, by roughly 1.5dB, so start thinking 96.5dB/1w/m.
Shame the Great Heil doesn't have a bit more efficiency, ehhh old school magnets = drawback.
Have a couple of other ideas about waveguiding them together, but that's nuts, they just shouldn't be expected to lift up anything at 1.6k without serious distortion IMHO. Better match would be some 2- 3"ers with an efficiency of 93, good luck with finding that, alone done well.
An ejmmlc 500 elliptical horn and a good compression driver could do.
Will be on the lookout 🙂
15" coax for K15 seem to be drying up - - there's one P-Audio model available new-old-stock which should be competent overall but its kinda pricey at $269 each Martinsound quit selling their 12cx made by Eminence.
P AUDIO_BM15CXA
a good and tidy solution is to use an internal K-tube - that will beat a dome tweeter such as D54 - gotta check to see if Carl is alive and K-ing - he's been working on an oval tube per Karlson's open end waveguide patent - this is one of C's early X15 size K-couplers.
a K-tube on top will often sound more natural than a waveguide but probably should not be run below ~1K2 at high levels.
cast-frame Martin 1114 Eminence in a factory Karlson 12 - this type coax sounds good with the old model APT50. ASD1001 or PRV280 - B52's polymide screw on driver is nice too and tone resembles the B&C
P AUDIO_BM15CXA
a good and tidy solution is to use an internal K-tube - that will beat a dome tweeter such as D54 - gotta check to see if Carl is alive and K-ing - he's been working on an oval tube per Karlson's open end waveguide patent - this is one of C's early X15 size K-couplers.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
a K-tube on top will often sound more natural than a waveguide but probably should not be run below ~1K2 at high levels.
cast-frame Martin 1114 Eminence in a factory Karlson 12 - this type coax sounds good with the old model APT50. ASD1001 or PRV280 - B52's polymide screw on driver is nice too and tone resembles the B&C
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You have some good points and I think the circa 10 dB dips are to be expected based on the sims I have in post number 1. Given the basic design, there will be some dips and their location will depend on placement in room - mainly function of driver height and distance from wall. That modifies the location of the dip in frequency and its amplitude.
The high frequency tweeter can be done by a horn with CD and achieve the 96 dB efficiency easily enough. Some folks like the sound of a dome tweeter (or in this case, a belly button or nipple shaped) tweeter more. I think the Beyma pleated diaphragm may be the way to go. Or a CD and the Karlson coupler tube that Freddi mentions will give very good polar directivity while retaining high sensitivity from a CD.
Use of multiple 3 in drivers at 95 dB for the tweets is easy - look at a Fostex full range like an FE103EN or such. They can sound very good and if crossed at 150 Hz in a FAST config can totally change the dynamics of this speaker. In which case I would use a simple 1st order XO of a cap for the full rangers and a single coil for the Beta's.
I have 4 fe103's here they're 4" with a 2.75" cone (~3" effective). But unless done active won't match the sensitivity of the 10's.
Was wondering how the design planned on overcoming combing with three tweeters in a vertical array?....
Initially, Audio Elite suggested the very nice Beyma TpL150h. Use of a high efficiency single tweeter will solve comb effects. A CD or 95 dB dome tweeter.
I still think the Beyma TPL is the way to go. This has a wonderful smooth high end extension and can sound almost as sweet as the RAAL 70-20XR if done right, but with the efficiency needed to keep up with the 10"s.
This will make the Dragon sound like a puppy with it tail between its legs!
I'm astonished the thread has continued this far..
The original design isn't very good.
Oddly, the three small SB tweeters in a very narrow-spaced line is the best part of the design, but mating a pair of 10" with high midrange distortion to that line? Um, no.
How difficult would it have been to add a midrange to this speaker?
The original design isn't very good.
Oddly, the three small SB tweeters in a very narrow-spaced line is the best part of the design, but mating a pair of 10" with high midrange distortion to that line? Um, no.
How difficult would it have been to add a midrange to this speaker?
The link below is a picture of the standard Pendragon crossover and the upgrade using Mundorf caps, how pathetic is that. Apparently $700.00 for the upgrade. This is surly a 10 year olds attempt at a crossover for his BMX
Man can we do better🙄
http://i.imgur.com/KWXNS.jpg
Man can we do better🙄
http://i.imgur.com/KWXNS.jpg
I think if the point is to replicate the Pendragon for a cheaper price, a similar design approach should be used....
There arent very many cheap neo tweeters that can cross very low. The Vifa DQ25 might be the best option, high sensitivity and can cross below 2 khz. Maybe use 4 of them, as the SB29 is still much more capable. The 10" woofer WtW configuration could still be used, but a 2.5 way would make more sense to me, which would allow a crossover closer to 1.5 khz where the quad Vifa tweeters would be more comfortable.
There arent very many cheap neo tweeters that can cross very low. The Vifa DQ25 might be the best option, high sensitivity and can cross below 2 khz. Maybe use 4 of them, as the SB29 is still much more capable. The 10" woofer WtW configuration could still be used, but a 2.5 way would make more sense to me, which would allow a crossover closer to 1.5 khz where the quad Vifa tweeters would be more comfortable.
Reading the review it sounded like the reviewer said the distortion was mostly second harmonic and was quite good for a 98 dB driver. What about using the top driver as a Beta coax with a CD and built in horn?
Just look to the actual result rather than the comments on that result. 😉
IMO It's really not bad driver below 140 Hz considering the price, efficiency, and low fs (for a 10"). (..note however that this is shown with two woofers with a marginal reduction in distortion.) It's not *good* mind you, but it's not bad either. It's also well adept at sealed enclosures with a modest volume and good extension near the average.
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http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Legend_BP102.pdf
For a driver extending into the bass region you really want to focus on efficiency at 150 Hz (or so).
So that's really about 92.5 db 1 watt at 1 meter with an infinite baffle (1 driver). You can use the "Edge" baffle modeling program to get an idea of losses on a baffle the size of the Pendragon's.
I wonder if the distortion on the wide range (relatively as it goes up to 3 kHz) Beta 10cx is better? I would just model the actual speaker in the cabinet using AkAbak which accounts for baffle step and diffraction losses. I think the Beta's are probably smoother and lower distortion.
That's why I asked as Mike's measurements show very low levels given the test levels, often the case with pro audio drivers.
The tweeter distortion is extremely low, but the woofer level is definitely higher then it should be.
I know that comparing across different sets of measurements isnt exactly the most accurate, but my dual 8" SilverFlute ($36 woofer) speaker, measured at 100 db/1 meter has lower distortion under 1khz then the pendragon at 95db.
(woofer/mid crossover at 550hz)
I know that comparing across different sets of measurements isnt exactly the most accurate, but my dual 8" SilverFlute ($36 woofer) speaker, measured at 100 db/1 meter has lower distortion under 1khz then the pendragon at 95db.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(woofer/mid crossover at 550hz)
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