FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 4FE32
..and non-pro origin:
http://gr-research.com/m130-16woofer.aspx
Note the impedance on both. 😉
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ScottG,
Those are nice driver options that I did not know about before - are they easy to buy in the US? I actually like paralleling 8 ohm drivers to get 4 ohms as that lets me get more power from my class D amp powered by a 19 volt laptop brick.
Those are nice driver options that I did not know about before - are they easy to buy in the US? I actually like paralleling 8 ohm drivers to get 4 ohms as that lets me get more power from my class D amp powered by a 19 volt laptop brick.
I've only piddled with the 3FE20 = ok driver
77 days backorder
Faital Pro 3 Inch 20W 8 Ohm Full Range Speaker | 3FE20 | Faital Pro
only 5 from this seller
Faital Pro 3" Mid High Speaker 3FE20 8 Ohms 40W 91nu ll" 75Co | eBay
a Karlson solution would be more for me than boring direct radiator
77 days backorder
Faital Pro 3 Inch 20W 8 Ohm Full Range Speaker | 3FE20 | Faital Pro
only 5 from this seller
Faital Pro 3" Mid High Speaker 3FE20 8 Ohms 40W 91nu ll" 75Co | eBay
a Karlson solution would be more for me than boring direct radiator
Parts Express now carries Faital (and the Pro line) drivers. They have several 8 and 16 ohms 3 and 4 inch diameter drivers with 90 dB or greater sensitivities.
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I haven't heard back from anyone if they think the frequency response curve from the dual cx10 Karlsonator approach is good and something I should pursue. I know Freddi prefers the Karlsonator, but that goes without saying. 🙂 My concern is the wider 20 in cabinet. Is that an issue for people wanting something to compete with the Pendragon. I think that the cabinet being 60 in tall I not an issue as I will flip it so that the drivers are mounted high and slightly tilted down to listening position. The tweeter can be done using a CD
mounted in one of the cx10 coax threads but modified using a K tube attached to where the usual tiny built in horn for the coax is mounted. This will give matching 98 dB efficiency and excellent spatial dispersion that the K aperture provides for higher freq from the main drivers.
mounted in one of the cx10 coax threads but modified using a K tube attached to where the usual tiny built in horn for the coax is mounted. This will give matching 98 dB efficiency and excellent spatial dispersion that the K aperture provides for higher freq from the main drivers.
It's only to emphasize what may not have been read further back. Certainly not something I do very often. @ least we're not a post (wh*re) count forum, with the biggest #'s = greater importance 🙄
The MTTTM layout is riddled with acoustic errors. Make that an WMTMW would improve and or resolve several of them if done correct.
The MTTTM layout is riddled with acoustic errors. Make that an WMTMW would improve and or resolve several of them if done correct.
I haven't heard back from anyone if they think the frequency response curve from the dual cx10 Karlsonator approach is good and something I should pursue. I know Freddi prefers the Karlsonator, but that goes without saying. 🙂 My concern is the wider 20 in cabinet. Is that an issue for people wanting something to compete with the Pendragon. I think that the cabinet being 60 in tall I not an issue as I will flip it so that the drivers are mounted high and slightly tilted down to listening position. The tweeter can be done using a CD
mounted in one of the cx10 coax threads but modified using a K tube attached to where the usual tiny built in horn for the coax is mounted. This will give matching 98 dB efficiency and excellent spatial dispersion that the K aperture provides for higher freq from the main drivers.
You spoke too soon...
Here's a straight MLTL ¼ wave optimized with second harmonic nulled. Load into Leonard Audio TL software.
dagnabit... forgot to change the extension prior to loading the file DOH
I'm working on a extended version atm
I'm working on a extended version atm
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I've ordered drivers from both GR and Parts Express - with ordering as easy as any website. Usually good service as well.
Note that the GR Research driver is a midbass driver while the Faital Pro's are midrange drivers.
16 ohm drivers (4) paralleled to 4 ohms will net you: 6 db acoustic and a theoretical 6db electrical (depending on you amplifier's output impedance).
Most around here would consider the Karlson a bad joke, but this is from an objective (measured response) perspective.
If you like the result then don't let that stop you from pursuing the Karlson. In the end, the only person you have to please is yourself. 😉
I've played with audio for 50 years owned many speakers, amps and heard a lot worse than Karlson including many direct radiators - - - Cogent Audio who makes high end horn systems would agree - a K15 quick lashed with a few horns would do better than the top Wilson.
Greebster,
I don't have Leonard Audio TL software, can you please post dims and plots of frequency response, impedance, cone excursion and impulse response?
Thanks
X
I have much more limited experience but of the 10 speakers I have built, my mini Karlsonator is in the top 2. I can only imagine how one with a proper low Qts driver in a larger size and bigger cabinet will sound. Freddi, I think you know what you are talking about and folks just need to get past the odd looks of the K aperture and give it a try.
it irks me to see sundry pipes/ reflex/ blh sometimes with mediocre drivers ballyhooed when I have heard K15 with a decent coax sound better and measure better with regards to distortion. I've not owned everything in FR but often whatever is recommended is not always wonderful and. The K-tube in its useful range from ~1K2 up is another good thing. Some proper modern Karlson-couplers would use the tube to augment either a wideband or woofer. Some coaxial can be fitted with K-tube. The 1965 Karlson X15 is an example of how to execute a 2-way K. GB's Karlsonator would lend itself to the same K-tube approach.
my speaker familiarity is limited just to what I've owned with commercial stuff like- KLH6/17 - Advent, large tube driven Acoustat - Magnepan MG1 - Tympani 1D, Audio Concepts 3-ways (and isobarik subs) with Dynaudio, Edgarhorn System 100, JBL dual 15 cabinets, Altec horns, a few waveguides - two Unity mid-tweet horns, VMPS, FH1 Peavey setup like faux La Scala. LS3-5A. 1772 Tang - AN10 - AN8 - FE206en, Silver Iris, Altec 604, whatever. Amps limited to the usual spectrum - same with DAC
some drivers are just terrible - its a very subjective hobby
my speaker familiarity is limited just to what I've owned with commercial stuff like- KLH6/17 - Advent, large tube driven Acoustat - Magnepan MG1 - Tympani 1D, Audio Concepts 3-ways (and isobarik subs) with Dynaudio, Edgarhorn System 100, JBL dual 15 cabinets, Altec horns, a few waveguides - two Unity mid-tweet horns, VMPS, FH1 Peavey setup like faux La Scala. LS3-5A. 1772 Tang - AN10 - AN8 - FE206en, Silver Iris, Altec 604, whatever. Amps limited to the usual spectrum - same with DAC
some drivers are just terrible - its a very subjective hobby
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I'm not suggesting a Karlson approach for this thread - but do not leave it out of your bag of tricks nor marginalize the original 1951 K15 as "BS" as its quite capable and musical.
I'm coming to this thread somewhat late, but I'm a little mystified by the title. Since the object was to come up with something that improves upon the eponymous box, or at least a DIY variation thereof, I looked for the tweeters that had been selected & the XO, which of course is pretty much the heart of a multiway speaker design & couldn't find either. So wouldn't it be a trifle premature to call it (whatever 'it' is / ends up being) a 'slayer' of an existing box before either of these have been selected, modelled, prototyped & revised, whatever might be thought of the original speaker's cabinet alignment &c.? Or have I missed something?
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We have not settled on the bass alignment yet. Similar story with tweeters as that has some candidates too. So far I have put forth a tall MLTL similar to the Pendragon in shape, a bipole variant of it, a Karlsonator variant, and waiting for feedback. As far as the tweeters go, the low cost Vifa domes, the SB double ring rad dimples, the Beyma Pleated, a K tube, a CD with horn have all been discussed. Once we settle on the box and tweeter combo I am hoping to get help with designing a crossover. Although I can take a crack at one using the nice sticky guide in this forum. So this is still an evolving design so far. I think my vote is to go with something similar to the Pendragon in appearance and alignment but with better bass extension and a nice tweeter. I am trying to stay away from a tweeter array so the Beyma or a CD with horn sounds like the way to go to get the high efficiency. The Beyma is not a typical dynamic driver with TS params that I can model. I am hoping to put together the integrated design with woofers XO and tweeter selection in one integrated model. I guess maybe it's time to vote?
Purely based on the thread title, I'd be inclined toward a conventional, if large, MTM configuration, since otherwise you'd have something completely dissimilar to the named speaker. Not that that is a problem in itself, but it would rather miss the point since you'd be comparing apples / oranges. Not really fair on either whatever the box ends up being, or the Pendragon.
I'd be very wary about designing an XO solely with T/S parameters since the acoustic response can (and usually does) significantly depart from these, which ultimately, useful though they are, are just mathematical derivations. There are a vast array of factors to consider. You really do need to be using the on & off axis acoustic responses of the drivers in the box in question to do a proper job of it, and take the HD levels into account too. Equally, I'd be a bit careful of using the hybrid 1st order LP 2nd order HP et al employed in Allen's excellent thread for a very large (by contemporary standards) MTM. For a start, MTMs tend to need higher order acoustic slopes than you're likely to get with that; while the Eminence pro-audio LF drivers referred to typically have chronic resonant / breakup problems at the top of their rather limited useful BW, so a 1st order electrical LP filter isn't likely to be sufficient without one or more notch filters on it.
Not trying to throw spanners in the works here, but better you consider these points now rather than later. Above all the XO, since this is about 70% of multiway speaker design (some would argue more). The box etc. by comparison is a doddle.
I'd be very wary about designing an XO solely with T/S parameters since the acoustic response can (and usually does) significantly depart from these, which ultimately, useful though they are, are just mathematical derivations. There are a vast array of factors to consider. You really do need to be using the on & off axis acoustic responses of the drivers in the box in question to do a proper job of it, and take the HD levels into account too. Equally, I'd be a bit careful of using the hybrid 1st order LP 2nd order HP et al employed in Allen's excellent thread for a very large (by contemporary standards) MTM. For a start, MTMs tend to need higher order acoustic slopes than you're likely to get with that; while the Eminence pro-audio LF drivers referred to typically have chronic resonant / breakup problems at the top of their rather limited useful BW, so a 1st order electrical LP filter isn't likely to be sufficient without one or more notch filters on it.
Not trying to throw spanners in the works here, but better you consider these points now rather than later. Above all the XO, since this is about 70% of multiway speaker design (some would argue more). The box etc. by comparison is a doddle.
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The XO does indeed seem to be crux of the multiway speaker and I'm all ears if anyone wants to help out with the tweeters and XO design. There is a photo of the Pendragon' XO earlier in the thread, does anyone have a schematic of it or will I have to deduce the schematic and component values from the photos? This would be a good place to start.
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Audio Elite,
Do you know where the output goes and what the values of the coils and resistors are? Or do you have a design for the XO to go with the Beyma TPL?
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