Hi wiseoldtech,
I think that we agree on most points and our experience differs slightly.
-Chris
-Chris
I did, and still do have that luxury. It makes for a cheap education certainly.
Agreed. In fact, I often talk people out of modifications they heard about on the 'net. The approach that I take is to fix their problems first. They typically comment that they can't believe they were able to listen to the equipment with the faults they had. However, often I can make real upgrades to their equipment - only if it makes sense to do so. For many designs, upgrades can help, but ultimately the equipment is victim to poor design and shouldn't be "improved".
Entirely possible. The bearing rumble is something you don't hear until you get a chance to hear a turntable where this has been reduced by a decent margin. I had a Thorens TD-115 MKII that I bought new. Ot was a nice table and I was happy. One day a customer came in with a TD-125 MKII that didn't work, and he had just got it back from the distributor for the third time (Tri-Tel Associates). I fixed it and when he came to pick it up he looked at it and said that he just couldn't trust it and gave it to me. He wouldn't listen to my insistence he was making a mistake. So, when I took that home, it absolutely blew the TD-155 MKII out of the water for noise. It was so quiet and I ended up getting rid of the TD-115. The new TD-126 MKII is about the same as the TD-125 MKII for noise. There are times when you just have to live with something better for a short while to really "get it".
Well, yours probably looks nicer than my tables. They are fairly plain and your mind sees them and connects that object "as a turntable" without being interested. The TD-126 MKII is somewhat better looking, but still nowhere close to today's works of art. Me, I look at those and think how often they will need dusting.
I think that we agree on most points and our experience differs slightly.
-Chris
-Chris
Somehow an earlier War and Peace length rumination on over 50yrs of personal experience with turntables while suffering from this audio addiction got lost in the ether. Lucky y’all, actually.
Bottom line is that when I finally settled down with my last vinyl spinning rig about 20yrs ago, I was hard pressed to get chuffed about selling a kidney to afford the differences I could hear between the Rega Planar/RB250/Goldring cartridge combo than the latest tweaked out version of LP12, or the outrageously priced top of the line AudioNote rig.
Never did own a Thorens, but did have at least two DD - Dual 701 and Kenwood KD500, and honestly even back in the late 70’s to mid 80’s was more interested in spending a few extra dollars on best available pressings of particular titles than thousands more on the rig. I think I had three different copies of “ Wish You Were Here” and found the British to be the “best” - a four letter word I’ve since come to generally eschew.
Bottom line is that when I finally settled down with my last vinyl spinning rig about 20yrs ago, I was hard pressed to get chuffed about selling a kidney to afford the differences I could hear between the Rega Planar/RB250/Goldring cartridge combo than the latest tweaked out version of LP12, or the outrageously priced top of the line AudioNote rig.
Never did own a Thorens, but did have at least two DD - Dual 701 and Kenwood KD500, and honestly even back in the late 70’s to mid 80’s was more interested in spending a few extra dollars on best available pressings of particular titles than thousands more on the rig. I think I had three different copies of “ Wish You Were Here” and found the British to be the “best” - a four letter word I’ve since come to generally eschew.
Ahhh...... the notably famous Dual 701.
A lovely, stylish piece of machinery, and today its worth is doubled, sometimes tripled over the original price.
And for good reason.
It embodies the fine qualities needed for the discriminating music lover.
Notice, I said "discriminating" - not the obsessed nutbags that these days forever search for something that's beyond reason.
A lovely, stylish piece of machinery, and today its worth is doubled, sometimes tripled over the original price.
And for good reason.
It embodies the fine qualities needed for the discriminating music lover.
Notice, I said "discriminating" - not the obsessed nutbags that these days forever search for something that's beyond reason.
To wit: Laddies and lassies, I present to you the LP12 45th anniversary edition, you’ve waited long enough for this Klimax, so I hope it was as good for you as for our income statement.
Turntables | The Sondek LP12 Record Player | Linn
But that’s child’s play:
most expensive turntable - Google Search
Turntables | The Sondek LP12 Record Player | Linn
But that’s child’s play:
most expensive turntable - Google Search
Hi Chris,
You really missed out if you haven't tried a Thorens table yet. I am extremely happy with mine, and all those I owned for that period in time.
With the TD-160 being the most well known tables followed by the TD-125 MKII (even better). I owned a TD-125 MKII for decades. Finally the casting warped for the top piece making setup impossible. One of my friends found another on Ebay in Montreal, so i ordered that and had it delivered to the TT tech (Gary in St. Catharines, RIP). He rebuilt it for me and it's been perfect ever since. Later I bought a TD-126 MKII. Didn't know anything about it, but hey, it's a Thorens. That one is now my favorite turntable.
I've repaired and tried countless turntables over the years, even a Linn. My biggest gripe with the Linn is that the power supply was defective from the factory as far as I"m concerned and the "upgrades" should have been supplied as a warranty replacement part. My second gripe with Linn is the price. It's a great table, but not for the money! I guess we could say the same about current Thorens tables. Wish I could afford one.
-Chris
You really missed out if you haven't tried a Thorens table yet. I am extremely happy with mine, and all those I owned for that period in time.
With the TD-160 being the most well known tables followed by the TD-125 MKII (even better). I owned a TD-125 MKII for decades. Finally the casting warped for the top piece making setup impossible. One of my friends found another on Ebay in Montreal, so i ordered that and had it delivered to the TT tech (Gary in St. Catharines, RIP). He rebuilt it for me and it's been perfect ever since. Later I bought a TD-126 MKII. Didn't know anything about it, but hey, it's a Thorens. That one is now my favorite turntable.
I've repaired and tried countless turntables over the years, even a Linn. My biggest gripe with the Linn is that the power supply was defective from the factory as far as I"m concerned and the "upgrades" should have been supplied as a warranty replacement part. My second gripe with Linn is the price. It's a great table, but not for the money! I guess we could say the same about current Thorens tables. Wish I could afford one.
-Chris
I too have been ripping my CD's and vinyl to the PC. I still use WAV format since nearly anything can play it and storage is cheap today. A 128 GB micro SD card costs about $20 and will hold a LOT of CD's and pictures. My $200 smart phone will play WAV, take acceptable pictures and 4K video.
It is lossless and "universal" so that grabbing samples of sounds for manipulating in a DAW are simple. MP3's do not sample well, and audible artifacts remain if they are reconverted to WAV since information is lost. This is especially bad with percussive sounds, and other "found sounds."
Chris - when I said I’d never owned a Thorens, I failed to mention that retail sales experience gave me the opportunity to hear several iterations of TD125/arm/cartridge combinations, as well as TD150, and 160s with the stock arm and even custom SME3009 fittings - a bit of a challenge that one IIRC. That was of course several decades ago, and even I’m not capable of deluding myself I can remember what they actually sounded like compared to others at the time, but the fact that I never took one home speaks to me now of what those assessments might have been.
Have you heard an early Oracle Delphi or Alexandria? I owned a couple of successive models of the first (Grace 707/Formula 4 Unipivot/Decca tonearms, and numerous MM & MC cartridges), and listened a fair amount to the latter. The Delphi MKII/Formula 4/Supex 900 was probably my favourite on-board.
Have you heard an early Oracle Delphi or Alexandria? I owned a couple of successive models of the first (Grace 707/Formula 4 Unipivot/Decca tonearms, and numerous MM & MC cartridges), and listened a fair amount to the latter. The Delphi MKII/Formula 4/Supex 900 was probably my favourite on-board.
I replaced the main drive belt in a Telefunken Magnetophon 203 Delux, lubricated it and got it spinning again.
Unfortunately the felt pressure pad fell off and I need to either find a replacement one or use double sided tape to put this one back on.
Still have to clean the pinch roller and heads before I try it.
Unfortunately the felt pressure pad fell off and I need to either find a replacement one or use double sided tape to put this one back on.
Still have to clean the pinch roller and heads before I try it.
Hi Chris,
Yup. There are several aftermarket arms I don't care for, SME being one of them. I have had a chance to hear and play with absurdly expensive turntables. And I hate to say it, but Oracle tables remind me of B&O lifestyle products, coupled with the fact that they don't support their products any more. My last interaction with that bunch left me with the impression that they are pretty confused and not interested in actual assistance.
While I was selling these things, I never once took one home unless I bought it. It was too much of a bother setting it up for a week, only to bring it back. Sometimes you were only allowed the weekend to listen to it. It takes longer than that to get things setup and running really right, and then to actually come to some decision on how you like it.
While servicing them, I often had a few hours to get to know them if they had to be run on the side of the bench. The only sound you really get to know would be how much rumble it has and how well it isolates against vibration. You're stuck with the cartridge the customer is using, and the setup unless that's wrong. Under those circumstances, it doesn't take long to get the big picture on a turntable, and how noisy it is. Beyond that you can't really determine much else unless there is something that stands out.
In the case of Thorens, they made an excellent arm for their tables and I believe replacing those arms was a mistake driven by salesmen. So far on a Thorens, I haven't yet seen an arm that outperforms the manufacturers arm unless you're putting a new arm on a very old table. I wouldn't want to try and find an arm better than the one supplied on the TD-126 MKII. Now, on other tables - yes. A new arm on many tables was an improvement. Especially for many far east manufactured tables in the 80's and 90's. I haven't seen that many new turntables lately except in HiFi shows. Tomorrow I'll be looking at the Toronto Audio Fest (near the airport).
What I would like to see is a "normal" turntable that might be stylish, but not a work of art or something that has to be built in place (they were popular). Something that does the job in the same manner as a Thorens or Linn. I want to be impressed with something that doesn't need a ton of adjustments so that the average person can own one without hating it. To put it another way, a table that every adult in the house is comfortable using. A work of art isn't like that. That and they tend to need a lot of dusting. Something you really do not want to have to do often.
Your turntable shouldn't have to be a DIY effort. But I think we are pretty much on similar wavelengths.
-Chris
Yup. There are several aftermarket arms I don't care for, SME being one of them. I have had a chance to hear and play with absurdly expensive turntables. And I hate to say it, but Oracle tables remind me of B&O lifestyle products, coupled with the fact that they don't support their products any more. My last interaction with that bunch left me with the impression that they are pretty confused and not interested in actual assistance.
While I was selling these things, I never once took one home unless I bought it. It was too much of a bother setting it up for a week, only to bring it back. Sometimes you were only allowed the weekend to listen to it. It takes longer than that to get things setup and running really right, and then to actually come to some decision on how you like it.
While servicing them, I often had a few hours to get to know them if they had to be run on the side of the bench. The only sound you really get to know would be how much rumble it has and how well it isolates against vibration. You're stuck with the cartridge the customer is using, and the setup unless that's wrong. Under those circumstances, it doesn't take long to get the big picture on a turntable, and how noisy it is. Beyond that you can't really determine much else unless there is something that stands out.
In the case of Thorens, they made an excellent arm for their tables and I believe replacing those arms was a mistake driven by salesmen. So far on a Thorens, I haven't yet seen an arm that outperforms the manufacturers arm unless you're putting a new arm on a very old table. I wouldn't want to try and find an arm better than the one supplied on the TD-126 MKII. Now, on other tables - yes. A new arm on many tables was an improvement. Especially for many far east manufactured tables in the 80's and 90's. I haven't seen that many new turntables lately except in HiFi shows. Tomorrow I'll be looking at the Toronto Audio Fest (near the airport).
What I would like to see is a "normal" turntable that might be stylish, but not a work of art or something that has to be built in place (they were popular). Something that does the job in the same manner as a Thorens or Linn. I want to be impressed with something that doesn't need a ton of adjustments so that the average person can own one without hating it. To put it another way, a table that every adult in the house is comfortable using. A work of art isn't like that. That and they tend to need a lot of dusting. Something you really do not want to have to do often.
Your turntable shouldn't have to be a DIY effort. But I think we are pretty much on similar wavelengths.
-Chris
Here's a table I couldn't fix and am suggesting to the customer that he send it to a real turntable expert. I am not that, but I'm pretty good with the electronic parts and aligning same.
It is a Thorens TD-125 MKII. It's problem is that it throws the belt when starting or stopping (or changing speed while running). At first, I found the clutch had been made too tight by another tech who is a true expert (just not on Thorens). I've never had to make this adjustment, but loosening the clutch improved the situation quite a lot. It also allowed the clutch to slip about the same amount that I was familiar with. After that adjustment the table would throw the belt high or low depending on the motor angle, and I was able to set that correctly. The table came back after some months with the a very similar problem, but this time it would throw the belt down no matter what the angle of adjustment on the motor. When you change the speed of the platter from stopped or running, the belt goes pop, straight down. It doesn't run down, it jumps. It is a real Thorens belt (at least it is marked as such) and the table is otherwise stock. The electronic motor drive is set up per the manual.
I did notice the motor shaft is slightly bent, not much and it's always been that way since I saw it the first time. I set it up when it was first purchased for the current owner, then it went to this really good technician for a Linn type upgrade on the transport. It's been throwing the belt ever since. My Thorens tables have all had the same upgrade done by the same technician, and they are all working perfectly and a little better for room vibration isolation. The entire reason this table went to that tech was that the customer was suffering from acoustic feedback (and still is). I just got him a new mat to replace the felt on (a Lynn mat).
I have never had a Thorens table that would throw the belt before on any I had ever serviced. At this point it is best seen by someone who understands a belt drive table better than I do.
-Chris
It is a Thorens TD-125 MKII. It's problem is that it throws the belt when starting or stopping (or changing speed while running). At first, I found the clutch had been made too tight by another tech who is a true expert (just not on Thorens). I've never had to make this adjustment, but loosening the clutch improved the situation quite a lot. It also allowed the clutch to slip about the same amount that I was familiar with. After that adjustment the table would throw the belt high or low depending on the motor angle, and I was able to set that correctly. The table came back after some months with the a very similar problem, but this time it would throw the belt down no matter what the angle of adjustment on the motor. When you change the speed of the platter from stopped or running, the belt goes pop, straight down. It doesn't run down, it jumps. It is a real Thorens belt (at least it is marked as such) and the table is otherwise stock. The electronic motor drive is set up per the manual.
I did notice the motor shaft is slightly bent, not much and it's always been that way since I saw it the first time. I set it up when it was first purchased for the current owner, then it went to this really good technician for a Linn type upgrade on the transport. It's been throwing the belt ever since. My Thorens tables have all had the same upgrade done by the same technician, and they are all working perfectly and a little better for room vibration isolation. The entire reason this table went to that tech was that the customer was suffering from acoustic feedback (and still is). I just got him a new mat to replace the felt on (a Lynn mat).
I have never had a Thorens table that would throw the belt before on any I had ever serviced. At this point it is best seen by someone who understands a belt drive table better than I do.
-Chris
You can have those fussy turntables that seem to run properly only within some pinpoint-sized balancing-act design.
I call that Bad Design, from a bad designer.
I've seen those Thorens motors, and those toothpick-sized shafts are a disaster waiting to happen.
Carelessness with the platter - one "bump" and you've got a messed up motor now.
As for belt drive anyhow, gimme an idler or DD instead any day.
I call that Bad Design, from a bad designer.
I've seen those Thorens motors, and those toothpick-sized shafts are a disaster waiting to happen.
Carelessness with the platter - one "bump" and you've got a messed up motor now.
As for belt drive anyhow, gimme an idler or DD instead any day.
Hi wiseoldtech,
Not at all. Over the course of 40+ years, this is the only Thorens table I haven't been able to fix. Those motor shafts are extremely tough and I have no idea how it would have been bent without completely destroying the clutch assembly. As for the adjustments, these tables are fairly forgiving as for the motor drive alignment. The adjustments are pretty easy to make as well.
Most belt drive tables are the least complicated available, and cheap to produce. Tell me what a Pioneer PL-10 would have cost if it was Direct Drive.
Idler wheel tables suffer from similar alignment issues (tire scrubbing), and also bearing issues because the bearing is so small with high force applied to it. In my personal view, an idler was best left on tracked vehicles like tanks. Any defects on the idler will result in audible artifacts, no so with a belt system.
Direct drive can work well, but they also have some issues. If this wasn't the case, you would have already seen Linn and Thorens direct drive turntables. I would love to see a table with the bearings of a Linn or Thorens table, and the same platter weight. That would probably be a really good combination. There must be something wrong (or not as good) about a direct drive given that we have not seen one to those standards yet.
-Chris
Not at all. Over the course of 40+ years, this is the only Thorens table I haven't been able to fix. Those motor shafts are extremely tough and I have no idea how it would have been bent without completely destroying the clutch assembly. As for the adjustments, these tables are fairly forgiving as for the motor drive alignment. The adjustments are pretty easy to make as well.
Well, it's a team of designers for one. For two, their products stand the test of time as well as the odd idiot technician and very poor packing jobs for shipping. Sounds like you were just waiting to jump on either a Thorens, or belt drive in general.
Most belt drive tables are the least complicated available, and cheap to produce. Tell me what a Pioneer PL-10 would have cost if it was Direct Drive.
Idler wheel tables suffer from similar alignment issues (tire scrubbing), and also bearing issues because the bearing is so small with high force applied to it. In my personal view, an idler was best left on tracked vehicles like tanks. Any defects on the idler will result in audible artifacts, no so with a belt system.
Direct drive can work well, but they also have some issues. If this wasn't the case, you would have already seen Linn and Thorens direct drive turntables. I would love to see a table with the bearings of a Linn or Thorens table, and the same platter weight. That would probably be a really good combination. There must be something wrong (or not as good) about a direct drive given that we have not seen one to those standards yet.
-Chris
Hi wiseoldtech,
Yes, I do. Yes, I have some bias for them which is impossible to hide if I am being honest. I still try to look at things objectively.
The thing with the replacement tonearms comes from several years of customers ending up with inferior arms for which they paid a lot of money for, plus low capacitance leads and not one company measured the new capacitance and corrected the load capacitance anywhere! Ever see an "okay" Japanese turntable butchered to fit an SME (in this case) arm onto the chassis? They told him that the transport didn't matter and a good arm would make all tables sound the same. Right. This one stands out because it was pretty silly. The affected table used to be a Denon with the electronically damped arm. It worked, and the customer had the normal low capacitive loading problem the wizards had sold him.
-Chris
Yes, I do. Yes, I have some bias for them which is impossible to hide if I am being honest. I still try to look at things objectively.
The thing with the replacement tonearms comes from several years of customers ending up with inferior arms for which they paid a lot of money for, plus low capacitance leads and not one company measured the new capacitance and corrected the load capacitance anywhere! Ever see an "okay" Japanese turntable butchered to fit an SME (in this case) arm onto the chassis? They told him that the transport didn't matter and a good arm would make all tables sound the same. Right. This one stands out because it was pretty silly. The affected table used to be a Denon with the electronically damped arm. It worked, and the customer had the normal low capacitive loading problem the wizards had sold him.
-Chris