After some burning in I did a listening test today. I listened to some music I am very familiar with. I unplugged the supercapacitors and replugged them several times while playing the same music samples.
After the first time unplugging there was clearly more noise audible in the background. I thought my setup with the battery supply was already very quiet
but there is certainly room for improvement!
Now that I have heard the effect I cannot do without the supercaps anymore, this is a good upgrade indeed!
The caps are currently only used on the battery supply of the fifopi and the 3,3v rail of the Andrea Mori Driscoll clock board.
I need to get some more of these caps for the other battery power lines: 6,6v rail of the clock and 5v USBridge Sig supply............
A tip to Ian: it would be nice to have a separate pcb for these caps that can be put on top of the battery board, with integrated balancing resistors and if possible build as an R-C filter that is put behind the on-off relais.
After the first time unplugging there was clearly more noise audible in the background. I thought my setup with the battery supply was already very quiet
but there is certainly room for improvement!Now that I have heard the effect I cannot do without the supercaps anymore, this is a good upgrade indeed!
The caps are currently only used on the battery supply of the fifopi and the 3,3v rail of the Andrea Mori Driscoll clock board.
I need to get some more of these caps for the other battery power lines: 6,6v rail of the clock and 5v USBridge Sig supply............
A tip to Ian: it would be nice to have a separate pcb for these caps that can be put on top of the battery board, with integrated balancing resistors and if possible build as an R-C filter that is put behind the on-off relais.
After some burning in I did a listening test today. I listened to some music I am very familiar with. I unplugged the supercapacitors and replugged them several times while playing the same music samples.
After the first time unplugging there was clearly more noise audible in the background. I thought my setup with the battery supply was already very quiet
Now that I have heard the effect I cannot do without the supercaps anymore, this is a good upgrade indeed!
The caps are currently only used on the battery supply of the fifopi and the 3,3v rail of the Andrea Mori Driscoll clock board.
I need to get some more of these caps for the other battery power lines: 6,6v rail of the clock and 5v USBridge Sig supply............
A tip to Ian: it would be nice to have a separate pcb for these caps that can be put on top of the battery board, with integrated balancing resistors and if possible build as an R-C filter that is put behind the on-off relais.
Thanks for the report, similar to my impressions too.
@SimonJ,
WAAAYYYY back in the day (say middle 1990's), a model aircraft/car/helicopter accessory company called W. S. Deans popularized what they called the Deans Ultra-Plug:
Deans - Plugs
It became the default standard for electric model cars, airplanes, and helicopters for the battery connectors due to its low contact resistance. AND it was and always has been criticized as hard to disconnect, which is why I standardized on another plug type.
Still, it is very useful for high-current audio connections and my default standard for those. I use these singly for 3.3V-5V connections such as with Ian's LiFePO4 supply and my own UC pair supplies. I combine 2 of these plugs for a +-G connection for +-13V-18V output stage connections.
I DON"T KNOW if W.S. Deans created these plugs or if they were a standard electronic/electrical plug they adapted. I assume the first, but really don't know. The plugs I standardized on, known in the modeling world as Sermos or LiteSpeed connectors, WERE an adaptation of a standard electical connector, the Anderson Power Pole.
In any case, you can get them through various hobby outlets. AND there are many compatible copies out there, though I've found some to not connect as consistently as the 'REAL' Deans Ultra-Plugs!
Greg in Mississippi
WAAAYYYY back in the day (say middle 1990's), a model aircraft/car/helicopter accessory company called W. S. Deans popularized what they called the Deans Ultra-Plug:
Deans - Plugs
It became the default standard for electric model cars, airplanes, and helicopters for the battery connectors due to its low contact resistance. AND it was and always has been criticized as hard to disconnect, which is why I standardized on another plug type.
Still, it is very useful for high-current audio connections and my default standard for those. I use these singly for 3.3V-5V connections such as with Ian's LiFePO4 supply and my own UC pair supplies. I combine 2 of these plugs for a +-G connection for +-13V-18V output stage connections.
I DON"T KNOW if W.S. Deans created these plugs or if they were a standard electronic/electrical plug they adapted. I assume the first, but really don't know. The plugs I standardized on, known in the modeling world as Sermos or LiteSpeed connectors, WERE an adaptation of a standard electical connector, the Anderson Power Pole.
In any case, you can get them through various hobby outlets. AND there are many compatible copies out there, though I've found some to not connect as consistently as the 'REAL' Deans Ultra-Plugs!
Greg in Mississippi
@Supersurfer / @sebbyp,
I revisited a similar situation last night. To help another Ian GB FiFoPi / DM DAC user troubleshoot his setup, I did some comparison listening. One part of that was to compare using the 2 3.3V rails from Ian's LiFePO4 supply powering my FiFoPi and DM DAC with my now-standard Ultracap supplies where I use a pair of 325F/2.7V Maxwell UCs in the configuration of Ian's UCPi circuit and float charge each pair with an Uptone Audio LPS-1.2 Ultracap supply which is a bank-switching UC setup where the bank supplying the output is not connected to the charging circuits, so off-the-grid (and therefore free of any AC line noise AND AC-DC conversion noise such as transformer and diode ringing.)
When I swapped back to powering the FiFoPi and DM DAC from the 2 3.3V rails on the LiFePO4 PS, it was definitely a step back, less palpable, less delineated, less dynamic and lifelike. Also less natural.
Going to those UC pair supplies last summer on both my Ian GB and Allo Katana setups were a significant step forward in all areas.
I know this is a little beyond what you were doing, but I suggest it is another good validation point.
Greg in Mississippi
I revisited a similar situation last night. To help another Ian GB FiFoPi / DM DAC user troubleshoot his setup, I did some comparison listening. One part of that was to compare using the 2 3.3V rails from Ian's LiFePO4 supply powering my FiFoPi and DM DAC with my now-standard Ultracap supplies where I use a pair of 325F/2.7V Maxwell UCs in the configuration of Ian's UCPi circuit and float charge each pair with an Uptone Audio LPS-1.2 Ultracap supply which is a bank-switching UC setup where the bank supplying the output is not connected to the charging circuits, so off-the-grid (and therefore free of any AC line noise AND AC-DC conversion noise such as transformer and diode ringing.)
When I swapped back to powering the FiFoPi and DM DAC from the 2 3.3V rails on the LiFePO4 PS, it was definitely a step back, less palpable, less delineated, less dynamic and lifelike. Also less natural.
Going to those UC pair supplies last summer on both my Ian GB and Allo Katana setups were a significant step forward in all areas.
I know this is a little beyond what you were doing, but I suggest it is another good validation point.
Greg in Mississippi
Do you think it would make a big difference having the power beforehand coming from ultracaps (uptone) vs liFePO4? Is this something you could try?
I am personally quite interested in the Allo Nirvana with Ian's soon to come ultracap buffer board at the output for a cheap 5v.
@sebbyp,
I have on my list to try these recent 325F Maxwells in parallel with the 3.3V rails of Ian's LiFePO4 supply as he described upthread. When I tried this with the older 350F Maxwells, I preferred both the LiFePO4 rails alone AND my LPS-1.2/350F float-charged to the LiFePO4/UC combo. That surprised me, Ian was not the only person who said the battery/UC combo worked well together.
I'm curious what I'll hear with these new Maxwells. Ian suggests they will be much better.
I've experimented with the UC pairs float-charged using LPS-1s/1.2s for over 1 1/2 year. The first brand of UCs I used had an upper-mid/lower treble shelf upwards that was troubling to my ears long-term. These Maxwells don't exhibit that for me. BUT they do sound somewhat different than my then-standard AC-connected supplies for the Ian GB 3.3V rails / Allo Katana 5V rails... faster, very even spectrally in a way that highlighted a lower-mid/upper bass emphasis of those AC supplies. Since I'd gotten used to that sound over the years, I tried several different 'float-charging' supplies OR post UC caps to try to phatten up that region when using the UCs. Several did that ok, BUT all lost too much of the speed, lack of overhang, and immediacy of the LPS-1.2/UC pair combo. EVEN going to an earlier LPS-1 as the float-charging supply was a step backward.
Because the UC pairs DO store a lot of energy (though by my calculations about 1/100th of a 26500 LiFePO4 cell), I have been able to swap supplies while the gear is running and hear the effects immediately. BTW, ANYONE ELSE WHO TRIES THIS DOES SO AT THEIR OWN RISK!!!!! MOST interesting is how a setup sounds with NO float-charging supply connected... VERY pure, very fast, very clean, very natural. Of course, it will not run too long that way... on a USBRIDGE Signature, it will drop to almost 4V in about 10 minutes. BUT it is oh-so-nice during that time.
Reconnecting the float-charging supply brings back the sound of that supply. ONLY the LPS-1.2 gave me an almost imperceptible change in the sonics. EVERYTHING ELSE I tried was much more noticeable and some objectionably so.
OTOH, a single LPS-1.2 was not happy powering an RPi/USBBridge Sig in parallel with a 350F UC pair. AND my typical trick of paralleling 2 LPS-1.2 via a dual-section MPAudio 3||LT3045 board with each LPS-1.2 feeding a side and the 2 sides paralleled at the output JUST DID NOT SOUND AS GOOD in my setups and to my ears as just using either my standard modified K&K Audio Low Voltage supply OR an Allo Shanti as the float charging supply for the UC pair for this application. SO now I happily power my USBBridge Sigs with one of those supplies feeding the 325F/350F UC pair, but the other 2 rails in each setup using an LPS-1.2 as the float-charging supply.
Using a Nirvana should be worth a try. Curious what you'll hear. AND after you have it going and the UC's broken-in, see what you hear when you remove the float-charging supply.
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Finally, note that using UC's in this manner is an advanced DIYer application. One needs to pre-charge the UCs to your target voltage safely before connecting them to your gear. AND I don't recommend doing that unless you monitor the voltage ALL THE TIME while you are pre-charging. I build up my UC pairs with both a 3-position plug for the current-limiting pre-charging regulator AND another for the voltage monitor... and I use these devices to monitor the voltage: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YALV0NG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I use Ian's LT3042 regulator boards to current-limit at about 250mA to pre-charge mine. When I'm using them with the LPS-1.2's, I set that supply to the next higher voltage (7V for a 5V output, like on a Katana) and use a 5V LT3042 board. BUT for the best sonics, AFTER it is pre-charged, I swap out the LT3042 board with an LDOVR.com LT3045 board of the same output voltage.
For source gear like an RPi or USBBridge Sig where the current requirements are above the LT3042 or LT3045 board limits, I use a 5V supply and pre-charge it with a 5V LT3042 board in series. It gets close to 5V, typically 4.9V or so. THEN I swap out the regulator board for a jumper and monitor it carefully while it jumps up to the target 5V or so.
Only once I have all the rails at the target voltage do I connect things. AND I disconnect everything (and put back in the current-limiting regulators) if I suspect I'll have a power outage of any length of time.
It all sounds OH-SO good! BUT do this at your own risk!
Note that Ian's UcConditioner will make this much easier for 5V rails. Hopefully he'll do a 3.3V rail version too at some point to provide this as an easy-to-implement option for other DIY'ers.
I have on my list to try these recent 325F Maxwells in parallel with the 3.3V rails of Ian's LiFePO4 supply as he described upthread. When I tried this with the older 350F Maxwells, I preferred both the LiFePO4 rails alone AND my LPS-1.2/350F float-charged to the LiFePO4/UC combo. That surprised me, Ian was not the only person who said the battery/UC combo worked well together.
I'm curious what I'll hear with these new Maxwells. Ian suggests they will be much better.
I've experimented with the UC pairs float-charged using LPS-1s/1.2s for over 1 1/2 year. The first brand of UCs I used had an upper-mid/lower treble shelf upwards that was troubling to my ears long-term. These Maxwells don't exhibit that for me. BUT they do sound somewhat different than my then-standard AC-connected supplies for the Ian GB 3.3V rails / Allo Katana 5V rails... faster, very even spectrally in a way that highlighted a lower-mid/upper bass emphasis of those AC supplies. Since I'd gotten used to that sound over the years, I tried several different 'float-charging' supplies OR post UC caps to try to phatten up that region when using the UCs. Several did that ok, BUT all lost too much of the speed, lack of overhang, and immediacy of the LPS-1.2/UC pair combo. EVEN going to an earlier LPS-1 as the float-charging supply was a step backward.
Because the UC pairs DO store a lot of energy (though by my calculations about 1/100th of a 26500 LiFePO4 cell), I have been able to swap supplies while the gear is running and hear the effects immediately. BTW, ANYONE ELSE WHO TRIES THIS DOES SO AT THEIR OWN RISK!!!!! MOST interesting is how a setup sounds with NO float-charging supply connected... VERY pure, very fast, very clean, very natural. Of course, it will not run too long that way... on a USBRIDGE Signature, it will drop to almost 4V in about 10 minutes. BUT it is oh-so-nice during that time.
Reconnecting the float-charging supply brings back the sound of that supply. ONLY the LPS-1.2 gave me an almost imperceptible change in the sonics. EVERYTHING ELSE I tried was much more noticeable and some objectionably so.
OTOH, a single LPS-1.2 was not happy powering an RPi/USBBridge Sig in parallel with a 350F UC pair. AND my typical trick of paralleling 2 LPS-1.2 via a dual-section MPAudio 3||LT3045 board with each LPS-1.2 feeding a side and the 2 sides paralleled at the output JUST DID NOT SOUND AS GOOD in my setups and to my ears as just using either my standard modified K&K Audio Low Voltage supply OR an Allo Shanti as the float charging supply for the UC pair for this application. SO now I happily power my USBBridge Sigs with one of those supplies feeding the 325F/350F UC pair, but the other 2 rails in each setup using an LPS-1.2 as the float-charging supply.
Using a Nirvana should be worth a try. Curious what you'll hear. AND after you have it going and the UC's broken-in, see what you hear when you remove the float-charging supply.
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Finally, note that using UC's in this manner is an advanced DIYer application. One needs to pre-charge the UCs to your target voltage safely before connecting them to your gear. AND I don't recommend doing that unless you monitor the voltage ALL THE TIME while you are pre-charging. I build up my UC pairs with both a 3-position plug for the current-limiting pre-charging regulator AND another for the voltage monitor... and I use these devices to monitor the voltage: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YALV0NG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I use Ian's LT3042 regulator boards to current-limit at about 250mA to pre-charge mine. When I'm using them with the LPS-1.2's, I set that supply to the next higher voltage (7V for a 5V output, like on a Katana) and use a 5V LT3042 board. BUT for the best sonics, AFTER it is pre-charged, I swap out the LT3042 board with an LDOVR.com LT3045 board of the same output voltage.
For source gear like an RPi or USBBridge Sig where the current requirements are above the LT3042 or LT3045 board limits, I use a 5V supply and pre-charge it with a 5V LT3042 board in series. It gets close to 5V, typically 4.9V or so. THEN I swap out the regulator board for a jumper and monitor it carefully while it jumps up to the target 5V or so.
Only once I have all the rails at the target voltage do I connect things. AND I disconnect everything (and put back in the current-limiting regulators) if I suspect I'll have a power outage of any length of time.
It all sounds OH-SO good! BUT do this at your own risk!
Note that Ian's UcConditioner will make this much easier for 5V rails. Hopefully he'll do a 3.3V rail version too at some point to provide this as an easy-to-implement option for other DIY'ers.
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UcConditioner load transient response testing result
Power supply manufacturers normally don't show you this waveform because it looks ugly. This is the output from a LT3042 ultra low noise regulator (with high current extension). Yes, it’s true! The 0.8uVRMS was measured at static condition with pure resistor load. However, in the real applications, this condition will never exist, load demand is always dynamic. That's why I did this load transient response test.
The top waveform shows the original output of the LT3042 5V regulator with load demand current changing between 100mA to 1A every 500us. The ripple is at 50mV - 100mV level. It causes by the feedback (PID) control of the active regulator power supply.
The bottom waveform shows the same LT3042 5V regulator under same test condition but with UcConditioner added in parallel. It was measured at UcConditioner output. Did you see how much improvement it makes?
The 1A load transient response ripple is almost disappeared! Only some high frequency spurs left which was caused by the inductance of the wires of the load at moment of switching.
The ultra capacitors I used on the UcConditioner were BCAP0325 P270 S17. Their internal ESR is only 1.7mohm. Have to use wires as big as possible in this case because the wire resistance could be higher than the ultra capacitors. Smaller wires will degrade the performance of UcConditioner for sure.
UcConditioerLoadResponse by Ian, on Flickr
Ian
Power supply manufacturers normally don't show you this waveform because it looks ugly. This is the output from a LT3042 ultra low noise regulator (with high current extension). Yes, it’s true! The 0.8uVRMS was measured at static condition with pure resistor load. However, in the real applications, this condition will never exist, load demand is always dynamic. That's why I did this load transient response test.
The top waveform shows the original output of the LT3042 5V regulator with load demand current changing between 100mA to 1A every 500us. The ripple is at 50mV - 100mV level. It causes by the feedback (PID) control of the active regulator power supply.
The bottom waveform shows the same LT3042 5V regulator under same test condition but with UcConditioner added in parallel. It was measured at UcConditioner output. Did you see how much improvement it makes?
The 1A load transient response ripple is almost disappeared! Only some high frequency spurs left which was caused by the inductance of the wires of the load at moment of switching.
The ultra capacitors I used on the UcConditioner were BCAP0325 P270 S17. Their internal ESR is only 1.7mohm. Have to use wires as big as possible in this case because the wire resistance could be higher than the ultra capacitors. Smaller wires will degrade the performance of UcConditioner for sure.
UcConditioerLoadResponse by Ian, on Flickr
Ian
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Yup,
Drool.
Quite a bit of ringing after the overshoot too on the original. Will be interesting to see one strapped to a faster oscilloscope to see that leading edge spike.
Only concern I have is that the super caps are attached to the LiPO4s directly and the notorious issues of LiPOs and the possibility of a super cap shorting.
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iancanada; The 1A load transient response ripple is almost disappeared! Only some high frequency spurs left which was caused by the inductance of the wires of the load at moment of switching. The ultra capacitors I used on the UcConditioner were BCAP0325 P270 S17. Their internal ESR is only 1.7mohm. Have to use wires as big as possible in this case because the wire resistance could be higher than the ultra capacitors. Smaller wires will degrade the performance of UcConditioner for sure. [URL="https://flic.kr/p/2ieJ9RP" said:
WOW! Fab work Ian.
@paoloilpizzo,
Yes, I do. I'm working on the total solutions to upgrade my LifePO4 power supply performance with ultra capacitors. I'll have more update soon.
Regards,
Ian
Hi Ian,
I'm currently using the four 3.3V outputs on the LifePO4 board.
I need four more 3.3V outputs.
Can I install four other batteries (e.g. on BT2, BT3 BT7 and BT6) and take the voltage at their terminals by soldering wires directly under the board?
Can this work properly?
Regards.
nounouchet
I'm currently using the four 3.3V outputs on the LifePO4 board.
I need four more 3.3V outputs.
Can I install four other batteries (e.g. on BT2, BT3 BT7 and BT6) and take the voltage at their terminals by soldering wires directly under the board?
Can this work properly?
Regards.
nounouchet
@nounouchet
My LifePO4 can have 6 3.3V outputs in total. Please see the user's manual for installation details.
Later on LifePO4 MKIII will have all the output terminals.
Regards,
Ian