- In general, an 8 inch can be used as a midrange up to 1500Hz and also a little higher dependent on the cone breakup behavior with a lower DI as a consequence. The breakup must be smooth.
There are examples of very good 8 inch midranges with excellent results as a midrange. I don’t know exactly how large the B&W midranges in the Nautilus are, but they also have a soft breakup (designed that way), which seem to have an amazing good dispersion behavior. I know from somebody who measured such one.
- To be correct, AE TD8M and Faital 8PR200 are 7.5 inch drivers, Sd = 196 cm2, that does help already
.
- The TD8M is chosen above the TD6M for its smoother SPL and its better sound, mentioned by AE. Looking to the DI of the TD8M shows the same value up to 2kHz as the TD6M.
- Now Aatto has ordered this TD8M, we must give that one a trial. Like I mentioned before this is also the reason to try to find an 8 inch for the Faital version.
- I agree that we need measurement data of AE. If AE will send some drivers to me, I am prepared to measure these drivers on my IEC baffle to obtain the information we need for a concept study.
I know, it is a big problem with all that necessary information.
- In attach two plots of the AE TD8M and the Faital 8PR200. There are two SPL curves for each, one based on TSP parameters only and the SPL on infinite baffle. For the TD8M I had to assume some value for Le.
You can see that the Faital has a breakup starting around 500Hz. Indeed, this looks a little disturbing, because it appears in the passband.
The TD 8M is more smooth in the passband, but has a dip around 1kHz, but it is less than with the TD6M
- You are right, the datasheet curves of AE are very smoothed. And both driver SPL's on a 10 dB/div scale in the datasheet. It masks the SPL ripple.
Maybe we have to wait for the TD8M results in the prototype.
I am also prepared to fully support somebody who likes to make a Faitals prototype and start with a 8 inch also.
IMO we have to try to keep something common. Otherwise we are making two complete different speakers in this project, which cannot be compared with each other.
There are examples of very good 8 inch midranges with excellent results as a midrange. I don’t know exactly how large the B&W midranges in the Nautilus are, but they also have a soft breakup (designed that way), which seem to have an amazing good dispersion behavior. I know from somebody who measured such one.
- To be correct, AE TD8M and Faital 8PR200 are 7.5 inch drivers, Sd = 196 cm2, that does help already
.- The TD8M is chosen above the TD6M for its smoother SPL and its better sound, mentioned by AE. Looking to the DI of the TD8M shows the same value up to 2kHz as the TD6M.
- Now Aatto has ordered this TD8M, we must give that one a trial. Like I mentioned before this is also the reason to try to find an 8 inch for the Faital version.
- I agree that we need measurement data of AE. If AE will send some drivers to me, I am prepared to measure these drivers on my IEC baffle to obtain the information we need for a concept study
.I know, it is a big problem with all that necessary information.
- In attach two plots of the AE TD8M and the Faital 8PR200. There are two SPL curves for each, one based on TSP parameters only and the SPL on infinite baffle. For the TD8M I had to assume some value for Le.
You can see that the Faital has a breakup starting around 500Hz. Indeed, this looks a little disturbing, because it appears in the passband.
The TD 8M is more smooth in the passband, but has a dip around 1kHz, but it is less than with the TD6M
- You are right, the datasheet curves of AE are very smoothed. And both driver SPL's on a 10 dB/div scale in the datasheet. It masks the SPL ripple.
Maybe we have to wait for the TD8M results in the prototype.
I am also prepared to fully support somebody who likes to make a Faitals prototype and start with a 8 inch also.
IMO we have to try to keep something common. Otherwise we are making two complete different speakers in this project, which cannot be compared with each other.
Attachments
Last edited:
Now Aatto has ordered this TD8M, we must give that one a trial.
...
I agree that we need measurement data of AE. If AE will send some drivers to me, I am prepared to measure these drivers on my IEC baffle to obtain the information we need for a concept study
...
Maybe we have to wait for the TD8M results in the prototype.
Ok, I have missed the point that Aatto has ordered the AE drivers already. Aatto, do you have any means of getting some impedance or SPL data from your drivers? You could sell it to AE to put it on their website...
Yes!
Aatto, do you have any means of getting some impedance or SPL data from your drivers? You could sell it to AE to put it on their website...
haha
, yeah I have a calibrated mic (UMIK-1) and DATS v2, no infinite baffle tho, hope that is enough it is very weird that AE doesn't share any actual measurements (not smoothed SPL, RMA ... ) I guess maybe since their main focus is not DIYers ?
Aehm, I actually have these drivers. However, I have never used them until now. That project did not ignite, and then the Monkey Coffin absorbed my interest...
They are available. However, I have to admit that it was a bit of a long story to get them right -- the parameters of the first pair I received (not directly from Supravox) were very much off from the specified values. Supravox then replaced them (after some back and forth discussion) with a good pair.
I have recently received a PM from someone here on diyAudio saying that his 165-2000 drivers were also off. I don't know the background of that story. I'd recommend to get the drivers directly from Supravox, and ask them to provide tested drivers with parameters confirmed to correspond to the specified values.
Let me know if you want them, or if I can do something (quick) with them for you.
A very long one But best to post it all together in one ...
Here are two cabinet proposals for the Tower XL AE and Tower XL Faital.
I had to adapt the depth of the AE version to 62 cm, I made a mistake in previous calculations.
Port height adapted from 5 to 6 cm in both concepts to realize B4 in the Faital version with a port that is not too short. A larger port area is welcome for the AE woofer too.
For the Faitals there are three optional port lengths: extended, B4 and a kind of quasi B4 with a port length between. For a real B4, the port length has to be 13 cm, I am not sure if that is feasible. I think the quasi B4 can be adjusted with the X-over to become a real B4 SPL response, with a little sensitivity loss but with a reasonable port length.
Tower XL AE
- Cabinet W x H x D = 47 x 112 x 62 cm
- Woofer AE TD 15X, Midrange AE TD 8M, Tweeter tbd
- 247 L bruto and 217 L netto for the woofer; 20 L bruto for the midrange, 5 L for the woofer and 5 L for the bracing subtracted
- Internal cabinet netto volume for midrange is 15 L
- Port length long: FB = 20 Hz, F3 = 35 Hz, F6 = 24 Hz, F10 = 19 Hz
- Port length short: FB = 28 Hz, F3 = 28 Hz, F6 = 25 Hz, F10 = 22 Hz
- Data for BR simulation: netto volume = 43.2 cm x 57.1 cm x 88 cm or 217 L; port long = 57.9 cm; port short = 24.0 cm; port area = 236 cm2
Tower XL Faital
- Cabinet W x H x D = 47 x 112 x 50 cm
- Woofer Faital 15FH520, Midrange 8 inch tbd, Tweeter tbd
- 195 L bruto and 165 L netto for the woofer; 20 L bruto for the midrange, 5 L for the woofer and 5 L for the bracing subtracted
- Internal cabinet netto volume for midrange is 15 L
- Port length long: FB = 25 Hz, F3 = 53 Hz, F6 = 34 Hz, F10 = 22 Hz
- Port length medium: FB = 36 Hz, F3 = 35 Hz, F6 = 31 Hz, F10 = 28 Hz
- Port length short: FB = 39 Hz, F3 = 36 Hz, F6 = 33 Hz, F10 = 30 Hz
- Data for BR simulation: netto volume = 43.2 cm x 45.1 cm x 84.7 cm or 165 L; port long = 57.9 cm; port medium = 24 cm; port short = 13 cm; port area = 236 cm2
SPL plots in attach for AE and Faital. Extended in green, B4 in blue and quasi B4 in yellow.
Cabinet drawings are draft, only as an information for a more detailed mechanical drawing.
IMO:
- tweeter Morel Cat378 looks a good candidate already, because it has an integrated waveguide. I prefer more Be except the cost. With 8 inch midrange, waveguide required, probably also for 6 - 7 inch.
- midrange, if the Faital 8PR200 receives many good sounding comments, maybe we can think about it. If there is more consensus for a 6 - 7 inch midrange we have to do that.
No problem to change drawings or BR design at this moment.
But best to post it all together in one ...Here are two cabinet proposals for the Tower XL AE and Tower XL Faital.
I had to adapt the depth of the AE version to 62 cm, I made a mistake in previous calculations.
Port height adapted from 5 to 6 cm in both concepts to realize B4 in the Faital version with a port that is not too short. A larger port area is welcome for the AE woofer too.
For the Faitals there are three optional port lengths: extended, B4 and a kind of quasi B4 with a port length between. For a real B4, the port length has to be 13 cm, I am not sure if that is feasible. I think the quasi B4 can be adjusted with the X-over to become a real B4 SPL response, with a little sensitivity loss but with a reasonable port length.
Tower XL AE
- Cabinet W x H x D = 47 x 112 x 62 cm
- Woofer AE TD 15X, Midrange AE TD 8M, Tweeter tbd
- 247 L bruto and 217 L netto for the woofer; 20 L bruto for the midrange, 5 L for the woofer and 5 L for the bracing subtracted
- Internal cabinet netto volume for midrange is 15 L
- Port length long: FB = 20 Hz, F3 = 35 Hz, F6 = 24 Hz, F10 = 19 Hz
- Port length short: FB = 28 Hz, F3 = 28 Hz, F6 = 25 Hz, F10 = 22 Hz
- Data for BR simulation: netto volume = 43.2 cm x 57.1 cm x 88 cm or 217 L; port long = 57.9 cm; port short = 24.0 cm; port area = 236 cm2
Tower XL Faital
- Cabinet W x H x D = 47 x 112 x 50 cm
- Woofer Faital 15FH520, Midrange 8 inch tbd, Tweeter tbd
- 195 L bruto and 165 L netto for the woofer; 20 L bruto for the midrange, 5 L for the woofer and 5 L for the bracing subtracted
- Internal cabinet netto volume for midrange is 15 L
- Port length long: FB = 25 Hz, F3 = 53 Hz, F6 = 34 Hz, F10 = 22 Hz
- Port length medium: FB = 36 Hz, F3 = 35 Hz, F6 = 31 Hz, F10 = 28 Hz
- Port length short: FB = 39 Hz, F3 = 36 Hz, F6 = 33 Hz, F10 = 30 Hz
- Data for BR simulation: netto volume = 43.2 cm x 45.1 cm x 84.7 cm or 165 L; port long = 57.9 cm; port medium = 24 cm; port short = 13 cm; port area = 236 cm2
SPL plots in attach for AE and Faital. Extended in green, B4 in blue and quasi B4 in yellow.
Cabinet drawings are draft, only as an information for a more detailed mechanical drawing.
IMO:
- tweeter Morel Cat378 looks a good candidate already, because it has an integrated waveguide. I prefer more Be except the cost. With 8 inch midrange, waveguide required, probably also for 6 - 7 inch.
- midrange, if the Faital 8PR200 receives many good sounding comments, maybe we can think about it. If there is more consensus for a 6 - 7 inch midrange we have to do that.
No problem to change drawings or BR design at this moment.
Attachments
Kaffimann:
Thanks. If a 6 -7 inch midrange will be chosen this Faital 6RS140 is interesting yes.
Matthias:
In the mean time I looked again to the SPL of the Supravox 165GMF. It also has a 5dB dip below 1 kHz. Difficult to interprete their SPL plot. I better looked first to that before asking you info, sorry.
It all looks not so stable, maybe we have to spend no more time on it now and looking first to others.
Edit:
I did a quick simulation of the Supravox 165GMF. SPL datasheet versus SPL calculated with TSP. You see the dip below 1 kHz.
Thanks. If a 6 -7 inch midrange will be chosen this Faital 6RS140 is interesting yes.
Matthias:
In the mean time I looked again to the SPL of the Supravox 165GMF. It also has a 5dB dip below 1 kHz. Difficult to interprete their SPL plot. I better looked first to that before asking you info, sorry.
It all looks not so stable, maybe we have to spend no more time on it now and looking first to others.
Edit:
I did a quick simulation of the Supravox 165GMF. SPL datasheet versus SPL calculated with TSP. You see the dip below 1 kHz.
Attachments
Last edited:
Lordsansui,Well done, options enought to make many happy.
If needed, I can help with drawings too, 2D and 3D using ISO units
Thanks.
Have you also some plans to build something?
For the drawings, maybe you can discuss that with Aatto how to do this work.
I prefer to not make final drawings
.
Last edited:
I actually meant the 165-2000, not 165GMF. I just looked it up at Supravox and saw the 165-2000 also has the dip at 1 kHz in the anechoic (?) measurement. The 1/3 octave SPL chart does not show the dip. I wonder if the dip is due to a measurement artifact at Supravox. However, I also realised the 165-2000 is rated at 4 Ohm. Not sure if padding would work out to a 8 Ohm rating and still enough SPL.
Lets see what Aatto gets out of the AE driver.
Yes but probably in 3 year, currently I'm renovating a house. And in addition I will need to spent some time to adapt the project for what is available here in Brazil in terms of drivers.
A very long one
Here are two cabinet proposals for the Tower XL AE and Tower XL Faital...
Paul, this is great !!! thank you for all your work
I' ll update the first post.
Paul I have some questions about the drawings.
-in your drawing there s a 394x60mm port cutout at the bottom of the baffle, it might be a little difficult to cut that, what if we cut 60mm from bottom of the baffle (make the baffle 60mm shorter) ? so the port would be 432x19mm, this make it easier to build since this is just a straight cut compare to cutting a rectangular inside of the baffle. how much does it effect the port length ?
please see the attached pic.
-the front baffle would be 25mm (1inch) thick instead of 30mm here in US, it does not make much different but we can make the dept 5mm shorter if it is critical.
-how important is the 20mm radius ? just asking to see if I can ditch it since I m not a big fan of round edges i know this is for baffle diffraction, just asking.
EDIT: BTW I had the foot print of XL marked on my floor just to see how big it is compare to my current setup. my current speaker is 27cm wide and 1 meter high (w stand), so it would be 20-30cm taller than my current setup (including the stand), it is bigger than a mini fridge alright
-in your drawing there s a 394x60mm port cutout at the bottom of the baffle, it might be a little difficult to cut that, what if we cut 60mm from bottom of the baffle (make the baffle 60mm shorter) ? so the port would be 432x19mm, this make it easier to build since this is just a straight cut compare to cutting a rectangular inside of the baffle. how much does it effect the port length ?
please see the attached pic.
-the front baffle would be 25mm (1inch) thick instead of 30mm here in US, it does not make much different but we can make the dept 5mm shorter if it is critical.
-how important is the 20mm radius ?
just asking to see if I can ditch it since I m not a big fan of round edges i know this is for baffle diffraction, just asking.EDIT: BTW I had the foot print of XL marked on my floor just to see how big it is compare to my current setup. my current speaker is 27cm wide and 1 meter high (w stand), so it would be 20-30cm taller than my current setup (including the stand)
, it is bigger than a mini fridge alright Attachments
Last edited:
Perhaps not hugely important, all things considered, but if you make the drivers flush on a 25mm baffle, the thickness left for the screws will be ca 13mm for the woofer (or maybe less for the TD15x?).
Port size is not that critical IMO, the design should be reasonably flexible and have little impact on the end result. It depends on your wants and needs.
Port size is not that critical IMO, the design should be reasonably flexible and have little impact on the end result. It depends on your wants and needs.
Aatto:
- if you make the port 5,5 cm high instead of 6 cm, the port area will be the same. Then all FB and port length values doesn’t change in my simulation.
The port area will be then (43.2 x 5.5) cm2 = 238 cm2. The cabinet volume will increase a little with 1,2 L, no problem at all.
- Making the front baffle 25 mm is not enough for TD15X, like Kaffimann is mentioning also. There is only 9.25 mm left for the screws with this driver, dimensions of TD15 in attach. The driver weigth is also 27 lbs.
- The 20 mm rounding improves diffraction behavior yes, but for a 8 inch midrange and a tweeter with waveguide it is not much. You can leave it out.
Yes, this speaker is a big one. I also have plans to make a new one in the future. I think these dimensions will be the maximum for me.
- if you make the port 5,5 cm high instead of 6 cm, the port area will be the same. Then all FB and port length values doesn’t change in my simulation.
The port area will be then (43.2 x 5.5) cm2 = 238 cm2. The cabinet volume will increase a little with 1,2 L, no problem at all.
- Making the front baffle 25 mm is not enough for TD15X, like Kaffimann is mentioning also. There is only 9.25 mm left for the screws with this driver, dimensions of TD15 in attach. The driver weigth is also 27 lbs.
- The 20 mm rounding improves diffraction behavior yes, but for a 8 inch midrange and a tweeter with waveguide it is not much. You can leave it out.
Yes, this speaker is a big one. I also have plans to make a new one in the future. I think these dimensions will be the maximum for me.
Aatto:
Have you also thought about, how to tune the port length if needed. In the first prototype it could be interesting.
I thougth at a removable bottom panel, but it is not that easy.
In your case in combination with a foot, you can integrate the bottom panel in the foot maybe. Just some thought...
Have you also thought about, how to tune the port length if needed. In the first prototype it could be interesting.
I thougth at a removable bottom panel, but it is not that easy.
In your case in combination with a foot, you can integrate the bottom panel in the foot maybe. Just some thought...
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.