I think Paul was referring to use TDM6 with 4x 8".
so guys. which one of the woofers you think will fit better?
if we have more then one option for drivers i suggest two things:
costs and overall spec in order to let the project be assembled with non optimized driver for who wan't to do it, if the specs are too much specific and too rare, at the end there won't be drive replacement, even considering trade offs.
costs and overall spec in order to let the project be assembled with non optimized driver for who wan't to do it, if the specs are too much specific and too rare, at the end there won't be drive replacement, even considering trade offs.
not sure if I understand you correctly, but design will be evolve around certain drivers, sometimes finding a replacement would be easy but most time it requires changes in crossover. can't do a general design that would work for different drivers.
I used replacement wrongly.
I mean, once the design is frozen someone can tune it to diferent driver, like changing port, crossover or even use dsp.
If the design takes into account a much specific driver, at the end, you can't just tune ir for a different driver, you will need a complety redesign.
In others words, once the project is open source, and could be built by anyone anywere. The amount of people that could benefit for this project could be increased if the design is more friendly in terms of driver possibilities. Accessibility is one of the key for the success
I have the impression that, in Latin America, a good 15" is easier to find compared to a good 8".
If a single 15" is chosen, picking up one from a list that has the spec more friendly could be one important criteria to define wich driver to use.
It's just a suggestion, someone with higher knologe and more experience, for sure can do better comparison between pros and cons.
I mean, once the design is frozen someone can tune it to diferent driver, like changing port, crossover or even use dsp.
If the design takes into account a much specific driver, at the end, you can't just tune ir for a different driver, you will need a complety redesign.
In others words, once the project is open source, and could be built by anyone anywere. The amount of people that could benefit for this project could be increased if the design is more friendly in terms of driver possibilities. Accessibility is one of the key for the success
I have the impression that, in Latin America, a good 15" is easier to find compared to a good 8".
If a single 15" is chosen, picking up one from a list that has the spec more friendly could be one important criteria to define wich driver to use.
It's just a suggestion, someone with higher knologe and more experience, for sure can do better comparison between pros and cons.
+1 for AE TD15X. but Faital Pro 15PR400 or 15FH520 looks good too.
It costs an arm and a leg but I m trying to convince myself into a 15" beast and wanna go all the way
I have done also some simulations, that is easier to compare. Optimized now for the lowest F3.
Choosing larger volume also for the Faitals, the F6 and F10 will become lower, but F3 will increase a little.
AE TD15X in VB = 170 L, fB = 32 Hz --> F3 = 36 Hz; F6 = 30 Hz; F10 = 26 Hz; sensitivity 90.3 dB full space
Faital 15PR400 in VB = 150 L, fB = 40 Hz --> F3 = 41 Hz; F6 = 36 Hz; F10 = 31 Hz; sensitivity 92.2 dB full space
Faital 15FH520 in VB = 125 L, fB = 39 Hz --> F3 = 41 Hz; F6 = 35 Hz; F10 = 30 Hz; sensitivity 90.5 dB full space
Remark that the Faitals have a higher Qms.
The AE TD15X is my personal favorite, but it is also the most expensive one I suppose. The combination AE TD15X - AE TD6m has my bless...
A combination of a 15 inch woofer and a 3 inch dome midrange will be on the limit I think. But I will have a look at it if wanted...
I will look also in more detail to all later. First I like to finish some study for the Monkey Box.
Hello Paul Vancluysen,
Considering the prices, do you mind to simulate the red ones?
$382.52 - BMS 15N620 - ArtSound & Lights - Ηλεκτρονικό κατάστημα - Ηχητικά φωτιστικά οπτικοακουστικά συστήματα - Ενοικιάσεις - Πωλήσεις :: ONLINE SHOP - (332,63 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$403.20 - BMS 15N630 - ArtSound & Lights - Ηλεκτρονικό κατάστημα - Ηχητικά φωτιστικά οπτικοακουστικά συστήματα - Ενοικιάσεις - Πωλήσεις :: ONLINE SHOP - (350,61 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$325.99 - Beyma 15LX60V2 (the lowest VAS=106L) - US SPEAKER PARTS - Speakers, Speaker Cabinets, Guitar speakers, Bass speakers, , Woofers, HF Drivers, speaker upgrades and replacement speakers. Eminence Speaker, JBL speakers, 18 Sound, B&C, EV, Tannoy, Peavey, Celestion, RCF, Jensen, Beyma, Fane, P
$129.99 - Celestion TF1530SL - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions (Note the version found wasn't SL so need to check diferences)
$671.64 - D.A.S. Audio 15GNR - AG Electronique (579,00 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$119.99 - Eminence KAPPA-15LFA - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions
$338.00 - FaitalPRO 15FH520 - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions
$271.00 - FaitalPRO 15PR400 - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions
$196,00 - LaVoce NBASS15-30 - https://www.steinigke.de (169,00 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$132.60 - Precision-Device PDN15BR40 - https://www.shopmania.co.uk - (102,00 £ rate $/€ = 1,30)
Considering the prices, do you mind to simulate the red ones?
$382.52 - BMS 15N620 - ArtSound & Lights - Ηλεκτρονικό κατάστημα - Ηχητικά φωτιστικά οπτικοακουστικά συστήματα - Ενοικιάσεις - Πωλήσεις :: ONLINE SHOP - (332,63 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$403.20 - BMS 15N630 - ArtSound & Lights - Ηλεκτρονικό κατάστημα - Ηχητικά φωτιστικά οπτικοακουστικά συστήματα - Ενοικιάσεις - Πωλήσεις :: ONLINE SHOP - (350,61 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$325.99 - Beyma 15LX60V2 (the lowest VAS=106L) - US SPEAKER PARTS - Speakers, Speaker Cabinets, Guitar speakers, Bass speakers, , Woofers, HF Drivers, speaker upgrades and replacement speakers. Eminence Speaker, JBL speakers, 18 Sound, B&C, EV, Tannoy, Peavey, Celestion, RCF, Jensen, Beyma, Fane, P
$129.99 - Celestion TF1530SL - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions (Note the version found wasn't SL so need to check diferences)
$671.64 - D.A.S. Audio 15GNR - AG Electronique (579,00 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$119.99 - Eminence KAPPA-15LFA - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions
$338.00 - FaitalPRO 15FH520 - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions
$271.00 - FaitalPRO 15PR400 - Parts Express: Speakers, Amplifiers, Audio Parts and Solutions
$196,00 - LaVoce NBASS15-30 - https://www.steinigke.de (169,00 € rate $/€ = 1,16)
$132.60 - Precision-Device PDN15BR40 - https://www.shopmania.co.uk - (102,00 £ rate $/€ = 1,30)
no need for simulation
Celestion has high FS.
Eminence is a good driver, has good sensitivity but with higher FS so it would be around 40Hz or 40Hz+ ( Same as mentioned Faital Pros)
Lavoce has high FS Also it s still new , havn't read any reviews on this yet.
PD is also good driver but has high FS and also not easily available.
i appreciate it Paul, yes the Faitals have higher Qms
+1 for AE TD15X + AE TD6M
3 inch domes would be nice but then we are looking at 2000$+ just for drivers, and it s high for most. I would like to get my hands on those Volt dome mids but have to leave some enthusiasm for next projects
previously you indicated that you was looking for drivers with higher sensitivity than TD15X that has 94,8 dB/W/m and also lower VAS than 467L, probably these parameters alone are not telling all the history so I put some drivers in the same picture with color map in order to support for better comparison.
Leggend:
Sensitivity: Higher = green ; lower = red ; mixed color in between
F3: Higher = red ; lower = green ; mixed color in between
VAS: Higher = red ; lower = green ; mixed color in between
Attachments
just make Elsinore as all your goals have been accomplished (~85L, 93/4dB/W, 32Hz and a very easy 8ohm load) with a proven SQ result.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/97043-elsinore-project-thread.html#post1144375
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/97043-elsinore-project-thread.html#post1144375
Koja
They do seem rather nice, but they do not offer the same as this design. Looking at the measurements of the Elsinore it seems to be maybe 8-9(?)db down at 40hz ref 100hz.
Lordsansui:
98dbw at 1khz is one thing, but we need the spl rating at 100hz and below. Please take this into account.
Edit:
And if looking at your chart only, even the Eminence Beta 15 looks like a viable option, if you absolutely must make a chart like that, please review the correct parametres.
They do seem rather nice, but they do not offer the same as this design. Looking at the measurements of the Elsinore it seems to be maybe 8-9(?)db down at 40hz ref 100hz.
Lordsansui:
98dbw at 1khz is one thing, but we need the spl rating at 100hz and below. Please take this into account.
Edit:
And if looking at your chart only, even the Eminence Beta 15 looks like a viable option, if you absolutely must make a chart like that, please review the correct parametres.
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Hi,
Tell me which are the correct parameter and I will update the charts. All values were took from datasheet except F3 that was calculated using Aato estimation F3=FS/QTS*0,39.
I have more enthusiasm to support then proper knowledge. The theory isn't a problem but real life experience make a lot of difference.
My experience is very limited, but here goes.
All of the parameters are linked somehow, but for this particular design, you can remove all drivers with:
- QTS over ca 0.38
- FS over 40hz
Further: the drivers will probably not be even evaluated unless it's a cast frame (not my demand, but very likely to be something many others will expect).
Seeing VAS in relation to FS and QTS does give an estimate of the low end performance, and what size a box would need to be to achieve it. But a low VAS may also indicate a high FS which can make a driver useless for a particular design, or high qts can make a driver unsuited for vented boxes of the desired size.
SPL however: most often does not, because the standardized SPL given in a spec sheet gives no indication what so ever of how the driver will perform around 100hz or below.
This design requires an fs of less than 40hz, preferably 35hz or lower, but again this depends on the other parameters also. Qts value should probably be somewhere between 0.31-0.38 if you want somewhat flat response to near fs (just a generalization for vented designs). A driver with qts lower than this will be more suited for horns, as a general rule.
VAS you can mostly ignore for anything else than simulations, it should not influence the driver selection. A 15" driver with fs 35hz and qts 0.34 will have much larger vas than a 15" driver with fs 50hz and qts 0.34 if the sensitivity rating is comparable. I know which driver I would pick to get response to 35hz or maybe lower.
Low frequencies need large box, but a large box does not help if the driver is completely useless for the intended application.
Also, there is a demand for high-ish QMS, this is a number depicting the mechanical resistance, or losses, of the driver throughout the travel. again, this has to be seen in relation to the other numbers or it holds no value. A membrane that is easy to move can be easier to control.
Edit:
Maybe this can help.
All of the parameters are linked somehow, but for this particular design, you can remove all drivers with:
- QTS over ca 0.38
- FS over 40hz
Further: the drivers will probably not be even evaluated unless it's a cast frame (not my demand, but very likely to be something many others will expect).
Seeing VAS in relation to FS and QTS does give an estimate of the low end performance, and what size a box would need to be to achieve it. But a low VAS may also indicate a high FS which can make a driver useless for a particular design, or high qts can make a driver unsuited for vented boxes of the desired size.
SPL however: most often does not, because the standardized SPL given in a spec sheet gives no indication what so ever of how the driver will perform around 100hz or below.
This design requires an fs of less than 40hz, preferably 35hz or lower, but again this depends on the other parameters also. Qts value should probably be somewhere between 0.31-0.38 if you want somewhat flat response to near fs (just a generalization for vented designs). A driver with qts lower than this will be more suited for horns, as a general rule.
VAS you can mostly ignore for anything else than simulations, it should not influence the driver selection. A 15" driver with fs 35hz and qts 0.34 will have much larger vas than a 15" driver with fs 50hz and qts 0.34 if the sensitivity rating is comparable. I know which driver I would pick to get response to 35hz or maybe lower.
Low frequencies need large box, but a large box does not help if the driver is completely useless for the intended application.
Also, there is a demand for high-ish QMS, this is a number depicting the mechanical resistance, or losses, of the driver throughout the travel. again, this has to be seen in relation to the other numbers or it holds no value. A membrane that is easy to move can be easier to control.
Edit:
Maybe this can help.
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So, why AE TD15X was proposed once its QMS is only 3,82?
Thanks for explanation and considering all you said, I filtered some drivers again to respect the indications and from math standing point the attachment #1 indicates the results organized from lower F3 to higher in two groups, first one for F3 under 40Hz and second one for F3 higher but close to 40Hz.
I also run some simulations using Hornresp with fixed cab volume, dept and port area, (150L/40cm/420cm^2). The only variable I was tunning was the port length. see attachment #2 for input data.
All drivers + cab SPL results are presented at attachment #3
To eliminate some drivers I took into account the indication below:
QMS < 8
Le > 2,1mH
Driver + Cab Sensibility < 96dB/2,83v/qm
Only 6 drivers survived: (see attachment #4)
SICA - 15 S 3 PL
FaitalPRO - 15FH520
Selenium - 15WS600
Precision Device - PDN15BR40
18Sound - 15W750 (Winner for efficiency achieving 99dB/2,83v/1m)
Beyma - 15WRS400
Fot the above 6 drivers see attachment #5 for SPL results.
What is the SPL required for this project? this requirement would help to filter some drivers as well.
Attachments
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