Do that and compare it with passive crossover. I am interested in science also. Post the measurements, please.
This is not a matter that should be taken on a faith. Try it and if you can not hear any difference, good for you. You will save yourself a lot of money and hassle when designing passive crossovers.
As far as measurements go, minidsp 2x4hd really measures bad - and that one should be the improved one:
Review and Measurements and miniDSP 2x4 HD DSP and DAC | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
This is not a matter that should be taken on a faith. Try it and if you can not hear any difference, good for you. You will save yourself a lot of money and hassle when designing passive crossovers.
As far as measurements go, minidsp 2x4hd really measures bad - and that one should be the improved one:
Review and Measurements and miniDSP 2x4 HD DSP and DAC | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
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Even if the filter transfer functions are the same, things like nonlinear distortion (harmonic, IM,..), noise, or jitter may affect the sound quality.
Just had a quick look at those measurements and while it certainly isn't as good other DACs IMHO that test proves nothing relevant since all those "really bad" measurements are still well bellow the hearing threshold and I don't see how those measurements would cause the midrange to sound "lousy, flat, lifeless, dull and harsh".
I would imagine that the losses would be greater in a passive system were it has to dissipate power, especially in a high power system compared to the active system.
Does anyone here really think they can hear noise, distortion or other artefacts that is at a level of -105 dB?
Has anyone performed a controlled direct passive vs active measurement, including distortion figures?
I don't know why are you trying to turn this into a spitting contest. If you have minidsp 2x4 device, try it. Have a listen and measure it. If you can't tell the difference, good for you. If you can, then by all means, measure it and try to explain why is there a difference. Like i said, i am interested in science aswell. But do bare in mind when/if doing blind listening tests:
"A "Golden Ear" or a "Lucky Coin"?
Editor: I've been called many things in my job as an equipment and music reviewer, but "lucky coin" ("Letters," May 1989) is by far the most aggravating. I confronted David "all amplifiers sound the same" Clark at the June 1988 CES and told him that I could hear differences among amplifiers and, furthermore, that anyone who couldn't ought not be reviewing them. He countered that unless I could demonstrate my ability in a double-blind test, my assertion was groundless.
When he called a few months later asking if I'd organize a double-blind test at the AES, I jumped at the opportunity. I worked long and hard, with help from many people in the audio community, to set up a test that would satisfy the measurement freaks, and I believe we did. I took my own test just once (like every other participant) with David Clark in the room, and scored five out of five correct identifications. Not only did I correctly identify "same or different," I volunteered which amp was which and got that right four out of five times as well.
Good enough? No. Statistically insignificant, I was told by the dominant Dr. Stanley Lipshitz wing of the AES. "Lucky coin," I'm called by reader Dayton. There's no satisfying those lacking discerning ears. They call it science. I call it jealousy.
I will never again take the trouble to organize or participate in a double-blind test under the aegis of the AES, because I have no doubt that close-minded collectivists parading as scientists will once again find a way to discredit the glory of individual achievement.
Incidentally, Clark attempted to insert equalizer networks in the amplifier circuits to flatten their frequency responses into the difficult load presented by the Infinity speakers. While the Threshold was essentially flat, the Crown amp was down 2dB at 20kHz. The VTL 500s had more significant deviations from flat response.
The Crown was restored to flat response, but David Manley (correctly, in my view) refused to allow Clark to flatten the VTLs, claiming that would be a test of equalizers, not amplifiers. (I'm simplifying his arguments to save space.) Clark and his cohorts claim that deviations from flat frequency response account for all audible differences among amplifiers.
That AES convention attendees—supposedly trained engineers—couldn't hear the obvious sonic difference between the VTLs and the two flat-response transistor amps bears sad witness to the low state of their art. But then, so does listening to most contemporary recordings.
While I've got the bully pulpit: I read lots of mainstream automobile magazines. Why is it that their readers never complain about reviews of sexy, expensive BMWs, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and the like—cars most of them will never drive, much less own—while readers of your specialized audio magazine keep bitching and moaning about your coverage of exotic, expensive, high-performance audio equipment?—Michael Fremer, Senior Music Editor, The Abso!ute Sound, Sea Cliff, NY."
Blind Listening Letters | Stereophile.com
"A "Golden Ear" or a "Lucky Coin"?
Editor: I've been called many things in my job as an equipment and music reviewer, but "lucky coin" ("Letters," May 1989) is by far the most aggravating. I confronted David "all amplifiers sound the same" Clark at the June 1988 CES and told him that I could hear differences among amplifiers and, furthermore, that anyone who couldn't ought not be reviewing them. He countered that unless I could demonstrate my ability in a double-blind test, my assertion was groundless.
When he called a few months later asking if I'd organize a double-blind test at the AES, I jumped at the opportunity. I worked long and hard, with help from many people in the audio community, to set up a test that would satisfy the measurement freaks, and I believe we did. I took my own test just once (like every other participant) with David Clark in the room, and scored five out of five correct identifications. Not only did I correctly identify "same or different," I volunteered which amp was which and got that right four out of five times as well.
Good enough? No. Statistically insignificant, I was told by the dominant Dr. Stanley Lipshitz wing of the AES. "Lucky coin," I'm called by reader Dayton. There's no satisfying those lacking discerning ears. They call it science. I call it jealousy.
I will never again take the trouble to organize or participate in a double-blind test under the aegis of the AES, because I have no doubt that close-minded collectivists parading as scientists will once again find a way to discredit the glory of individual achievement.
Incidentally, Clark attempted to insert equalizer networks in the amplifier circuits to flatten their frequency responses into the difficult load presented by the Infinity speakers. While the Threshold was essentially flat, the Crown amp was down 2dB at 20kHz. The VTL 500s had more significant deviations from flat response.
The Crown was restored to flat response, but David Manley (correctly, in my view) refused to allow Clark to flatten the VTLs, claiming that would be a test of equalizers, not amplifiers. (I'm simplifying his arguments to save space.) Clark and his cohorts claim that deviations from flat frequency response account for all audible differences among amplifiers.
That AES convention attendees—supposedly trained engineers—couldn't hear the obvious sonic difference between the VTLs and the two flat-response transistor amps bears sad witness to the low state of their art. But then, so does listening to most contemporary recordings.
While I've got the bully pulpit: I read lots of mainstream automobile magazines. Why is it that their readers never complain about reviews of sexy, expensive BMWs, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and the like—cars most of them will never drive, much less own—while readers of your specialized audio magazine keep bitching and moaning about your coverage of exotic, expensive, high-performance audio equipment?—Michael Fremer, Senior Music Editor, The Abso!ute Sound, Sea Cliff, NY."
Blind Listening Letters | Stereophile.com
This part seems pretty self explanatory to me! The audible differences were down to deviations in FR caused by the load to the amplifiers. Some amplifiers handle loads differently!
Different scenario than the DSP situation we were discussing earlier. I want to understand what could possibly cause something that measures the same but yet sound so different!
I bought mine from eBay (I don't know if the ship to the US, since the guy is shutting down the US from the rest of the world): Pyramidenschaumstoff Basotect 5 cm selbstklebend | eBay
This might also be useful: Basotect for damping BR-cabinet?!
Not DIY, but custom made. Look here: Steel Speaker Stands | Deer Creek Audio Classic Audio Components Accessories
Okay—went off the deepend with this project yesterday. Dreaming!
For anyone who resides in the US that has built these awesome speakers—please share your sources—or even BOM replacements/mods and results. I'm hesitant to do parts swapping seeing the level of detail and commitment Matthias has made to this project—just incredible. I mean REALLY.
I found these fine guys in Estonia:
Fidelity Components Shop
// Free shipping to US—you can get all their pricing in non-VAT USD by creating a login—and almost all the X-over parts from the BOM they have (also happen to stock the tweeters)—they are very responsive to questions—and anything out of stock has 1-2wk lead times. Their pricing is significantly better than any of the common USA/Canada sources we are used to for most items—beat the best tweeter price I could find by over $100. They are very responsive to questions. I had no luck finding cheaper inductors similarly speced—and the items that I did find (not Mundorf), were a lot more $$ (Madisound, Meniscus—nice looking stuff, but twice the cost of Mundorf).
// A lot of the MKP and bipolars I will probably source Dayton, Audyn, Jantzen from parts-express in order to keep some semblance of reality here.
The Volt midrange part has zero US distributorship—and the only online place that seems like they might sell it to USA is in the Netherlands (have bought toroids from the Netherlands with excellent results) they are gonna hurt$$ Haha:
Volt VM752 - AUDIO CONSTRUCTOR -
It looks like the woofer is easily available from:
US SPEAKER PARTS
The melamine foam—only online source I have found:
Melamine Pyramid Foam : Steven Klein’s Sound Control Room, Inc.
// By the box—but if you play around with the options you can get the price down to around $215 or so—for 4"—I think based on proportions in the images that 3" was used? —one could always shave it down—or some members could split up an order of 3"—and magic erasers could be used for the flats—as has been mentioned on this forum—seems from my reading here that the melamine vs poly can make a big difference room depending.
Bassport—hmmmm.... that's not happening easily. It would seem that you can make an account with the supplier and they may sell it to you:
BR-100HP
Not sure yet. 3" or 4" PVC tube? ABS tube (black)? How important is the fluted part? Or the overall taper? Or the aperture!?
I'm not done reading the thread—so maybe these details are in there—got too excited looking at parts—as a total noob I have some confusion about how the speakOn gets wired up—and super noob I'd love to see an image of the internal speaker wired up. Details on the interconnects. X-over to amp is that speakOn female to bananas? 2-pin speakOn?
I'm sure I'll figure it out.
Also, @mbrennwa—what's the material you used for your final cabinets (not the veneer, did you veneer)? The core almost looks like plyboo, but I know it's not—are they a plywood?—or did you make them up from hardwood boards? What about using multiply? Cabinet grade 5-ply or 15-ply (much denser)? I would love to avoid MDF.
Is it fair to say that if you were to purchase these speaks from a retailer they would cost north of $6K?
For anyone who resides in the US that has built these awesome speakers—please share your sources—or even BOM replacements/mods and results. I'm hesitant to do parts swapping seeing the level of detail and commitment Matthias has made to this project—just incredible. I mean REALLY.
I found these fine guys in Estonia:
Fidelity Components Shop
// Free shipping to US—you can get all their pricing in non-VAT USD by creating a login—and almost all the X-over parts from the BOM they have (also happen to stock the tweeters)—they are very responsive to questions—and anything out of stock has 1-2wk lead times. Their pricing is significantly better than any of the common USA/Canada sources we are used to for most items—beat the best tweeter price I could find by over $100. They are very responsive to questions. I had no luck finding cheaper inductors similarly speced—and the items that I did find (not Mundorf), were a lot more $$ (Madisound, Meniscus—nice looking stuff, but twice the cost of Mundorf).
// A lot of the MKP and bipolars I will probably source Dayton, Audyn, Jantzen from parts-express in order to keep some semblance of reality here.
The Volt midrange part has zero US distributorship—and the only online place that seems like they might sell it to USA is in the Netherlands (have bought toroids from the Netherlands with excellent results) they are gonna hurt$$ Haha:
Volt VM752 - AUDIO CONSTRUCTOR -
It looks like the woofer is easily available from:
US SPEAKER PARTS
The melamine foam—only online source I have found:
Melamine Pyramid Foam : Steven Klein’s Sound Control Room, Inc.
// By the box—but if you play around with the options you can get the price down to around $215 or so—for 4"—I think based on proportions in the images that 3" was used? —one could always shave it down—or some members could split up an order of 3"—and magic erasers could be used for the flats—as has been mentioned on this forum—seems from my reading here that the melamine vs poly can make a big difference room depending.
Bassport—hmmmm.... that's not happening easily. It would seem that you can make an account with the supplier and they may sell it to you:
BR-100HP
Not sure yet. 3" or 4" PVC tube? ABS tube (black)? How important is the fluted part? Or the overall taper? Or the aperture!?
I'm not done reading the thread—so maybe these details are in there—got too excited looking at parts—as a total noob I have some confusion about how the speakOn gets wired up—and super noob I'd love to see an image of the internal speaker wired up. Details on the interconnects. X-over to amp is that speakOn female to bananas? 2-pin speakOn?
I'm sure I'll figure it out.
Also, @mbrennwa—what's the material you used for your final cabinets (not the veneer, did you veneer)? The core almost looks like plyboo, but I know it's not—are they a plywood?—or did you make them up from hardwood boards? What about using multiply? Cabinet grade 5-ply or 15-ply (much denser)? I would love to avoid MDF.
Is it fair to say that if you were to purchase these speaks from a retailer they would cost north of $6K?
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Part availability in the US... is pretty much the same as in Switzerland. Just order stuff from around the world. No big deal.
Midrange dome: just ask the guys at Volt. I am sure they will sell to you.
xover caps: Madisound has Mundorf. Just don't use the "high end" Mundorf stuff they sell on their website. Ask them if the sell the normal (and much better!) MCaps. Otherwise look at ClarityCaps, Jantzen, etc.
Melamine foam: I used the 5cm stuff, which is about 2".
Bass reflex port: I would be surprised if you cant find it locally in the US. These ports sold by Visaton/Monacor around here, but I am pretty saw the same ports are also sold by other companies. I'd have to google for them though. Jantzen maybe? Otherwise you can always use a similar tube, as you'll most likely tweak the port length by ear anyway.
I used SpeakOn terminals everywhere. But this is just a matter of taste.
I used three-layer wood for my enclosures and sandwiched a layer of aluminium sheet to the inside. Don't loose your sleep over the enclosure materials, as long as it's "dead". The best way to achieve that is to use enough bracing.
Midrange dome: just ask the guys at Volt. I am sure they will sell to you.
xover caps: Madisound has Mundorf. Just don't use the "high end" Mundorf stuff they sell on their website. Ask them if the sell the normal (and much better!) MCaps. Otherwise look at ClarityCaps, Jantzen, etc.
Melamine foam: I used the 5cm stuff, which is about 2".
Bass reflex port: I would be surprised if you cant find it locally in the US. These ports sold by Visaton/Monacor around here, but I am pretty saw the same ports are also sold by other companies. I'd have to google for them though. Jantzen maybe? Otherwise you can always use a similar tube, as you'll most likely tweak the port length by ear anyway.
I used SpeakOn terminals everywhere. But this is just a matter of taste.
I used three-layer wood for my enclosures and sandwiched a layer of aluminium sheet to the inside. Don't loose your sleep over the enclosure materials, as long as it's "dead". The best way to achieve that is to use enough bracing.
Anyone interested in getting a pair of waveguides for the Scan tweeters? I sold all waveguides from the first batch, so I'll have to set up a new batch.
Now is the time to join the group buy here: Group buy for Augerpro Scan-Speak waveguide (circular version)
Now is the time to join the group buy here: Group buy for Augerpro Scan-Speak waveguide (circular version)
Well... the fine guys in Estonia have them: Jantzen Port Tube 3-3/4" ID x 5-3/4" L (100/145mm) Flared (HP 900028), 051-0020 - Fidelity Components Shop
Otherwise this will work, too: 4FLARE - Complete Kit
That said, I never really understand why people don't want to buy stuff from a dealer outside their country, or even directly from the manufacturer. The stuff will have to be shipped anyway from the factory to you, and someone (the consumer/you) will have to pay the shipping costs anyway, no matter if it goes through a local dealer or not. Or am I missing something?
Ha! missed this post—BUT I had found that exact part from those guys only a few minutes ago! After looking at the Jantzen spec sheet for all their bass ports I was able to match it up.. Thanks!
Haven't heard back from either company that I contacted directly: Volt or Monacor. I think they may not want to deal with small quantities etc. I'd say that is a pretty common attitude based on my experience.