analog switches have varying r_ds_on, parasitic C to rails. gate drive V that can add distortion
thin film R on Si substrate can also add problems as Hofer of AP relates
and op amps or buffer circuits can have nonlinear input Z (C mostly) which interacts with especially the varying impedance of a pot tap - Groner's one of the few measuring this
thin film R on Si substrate can also add problems as Hofer of AP relates
and op amps or buffer circuits can have nonlinear input Z (C mostly) which interacts with especially the varying impedance of a pot tap - Groner's one of the few measuring this
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Heck. Everything in this world varies, everything depends on everything and every variation is certainly measurable. But is it always audible ?
Even the wine changes its taste almost every minute, and we love it.
Dont get me wrong !
We have to make many compromisse, when we build an audio device and everything you wrote fits for many circuits and not just for the muses.
What shall we do?
We need these distorting volume control, buffers and amps for enjoying music.
Even the wine changes its taste almost every minute, and we love it.
Dont get me wrong !
We have to make many compromisse, when we build an audio device and everything you wrote fits for many circuits and not just for the muses.
What shall we do?
We need these distorting volume control, buffers and amps for enjoying music.
As I am more curious on how's the architect inside this chip works than how it sounds.
Well then you are in the wrong spot for wrong hobby.
I advice you to phone with manufacturer and designer of the IC and ask everything you need because obviously we don't know more than what's written on its official documentation.
Here we care about audio and how things sound in the real world! I wonder if you even have a sound system.
gee I thought I reinforced that point earlier in this thread, with 2 explicit posts and one that implies understanding that
the Muse pot tap is pretty useless without some following circuitry - which can add distortion at the interface because of the pot tap equivalent source series R
a few fet op amp data sheets do mention that low noise, large area fet inputs do have capacitance modulation with CM Vin that degrades the op amp distortion specs with even a few kOhms source - the OPA164x data sheet is one of the few that actually give graphs though
so if you want to implement the MUSE at the level of Bruce Hofer's Analog Design Class http://www.edn.com/electronics-news/4389493/Audio-Precision-offers-audio-seminar-in-Boston you might want to look into these effects
the Muse pot tap is pretty useless without some following circuitry - which can add distortion at the interface because of the pot tap equivalent source series R
a few fet op amp data sheets do mention that low noise, large area fet inputs do have capacitance modulation with CM Vin that degrades the op amp distortion specs with even a few kOhms source - the OPA164x data sheet is one of the few that actually give graphs though
so if you want to implement the MUSE at the level of Bruce Hofer's Analog Design Class http://www.edn.com/electronics-news/4389493/Audio-Precision-offers-audio-seminar-in-Boston you might want to look into these effects
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In my test obviously muses is followed by a discrete design preamp, which makes fair comparison between muses and other volume controls.
I understand your perplexities but you don't seem to understand the practical side of things and the ultimate goal for all this: which is to play music!
Until you won't understand this I think that this discussion makes no further sense to be carried on.
I am reviewing the sound performance and possibly instrumental measurements if I have the time to do so for whoever is interested like me to use it on his own home sound system.
Since I have no economical interest on this project and I could just keep all sonic impression to my self a thanks for my contribution to this forum be more than enough
I understand your perplexities but you don't seem to understand the practical side of things and the ultimate goal for all this: which is to play music!
Until you won't understand this I think that this discussion makes no further sense to be carried on.
I am reviewing the sound performance and possibly instrumental measurements if I have the time to do so for whoever is interested like me to use it on his own home sound system.
Since I have no economical interest on this project and I could just keep all sonic impression to my self a thanks for my contribution to this forum be more than enough
Why should this be a special problem of the MUSES??? Every poti has an output impedance (Thevenin impedance) and may cause/have problems with a following gain stage.
But if you are so fearful to have a MUSES in front of a gainstage, why not use it in the feedback loop? The MUSES offers this possibility, and perhaps you see less problems there.
I wonder why any objective discussion is considered an attack
I would 1st use digital domain volume control if well implemented
but the MUSES chip would be on my short list for something that had to have analog volume control
it has already been pointed out that measuring MUSES performance isn't trivial - it is very good
at the limits of measurement it is often necessary to leverage every scrap of information, know the types of errors to look for, how they scale with frequency, amplitude
"white box" testing tailors test signals, conditions for predicted circuit weaknesses - you have to know the circuit details, likely distortion mechanisms, their properties to effectively test for them when close to measurement limits
my comments are intended to help in this process -not dissuade any from using it
I would 1st use digital domain volume control if well implemented
but the MUSES chip would be on my short list for something that had to have analog volume control
it has already been pointed out that measuring MUSES performance isn't trivial - it is very good
at the limits of measurement it is often necessary to leverage every scrap of information, know the types of errors to look for, how they scale with frequency, amplitude
"white box" testing tailors test signals, conditions for predicted circuit weaknesses - you have to know the circuit details, likely distortion mechanisms, their properties to effectively test for them when close to measurement limits
my comments are intended to help in this process -not dissuade any from using it
I think you don't even know what to look for!
This is a matter of trying the chip and hear what it is capable of...it is just this simple! You are making it more complicated that it has to.
I appreciate guys like hm4 that want and are interests to know sound performance and how it compares to classic methods. Ultimately you are going to listen music through it...right?
What is your sound system(please detail including brands models cables accessories and so on)?
You haven't yet answered to this simple question.
This is a matter of trying the chip and hear what it is capable of...it is just this simple! You are making it more complicated that it has to.
I appreciate guys like hm4 that want and are interests to know sound performance and how it compares to classic methods. Ultimately you are going to listen music through it...right?
What is your sound system(please detail including brands models cables accessories and so on)?
You haven't yet answered to this simple question.
Gee, you really are making a big deal out of this "review". Are you not taking it a bit too seriously?
Once you have a good setup and a good PS i would imagine ten minutes of listening would suffice. With the last electronic pot i compared to a Shallco switch (DS1666) it took only a few seconds
I hope stefanoo has fun on the long listening sessions.
Relaxed by listening to some records. This volume control board makes it possible.
Recently you've probably spent a few hours to integrate the ds1660 into your system and only a few seconds to listen.
I know, sometimes you spend time and money on the wrong parts, and will be back again on the start after a few seconds or unfortunately even further away from the goal.
The muses on my board doing anything wrong and I also like to listen music with it
For me, it tooks longer to take the measurements as to decide whether it meets sound quality but maybe I can't compare it to the top notch components such as dact and schalco, I have only a Elna switch with some HOLCO H4 and a Alps RK27 in shunt configuration.
Stefanoo, thanks to spent time on a review and share it
Relaxed by listening to some records. This volume control board makes it possible.
Recently you've probably spent a few hours to integrate the ds1660 into your system and only a few seconds to listen.
I know, sometimes you spend time and money on the wrong parts, and will be back again on the start after a few seconds or unfortunately even further away from the goal.
The muses on my board doing anything wrong and I also like to listen music with it
For me, it tooks longer to take the measurements as to decide whether it meets sound quality but maybe I can't compare it to the top notch components such as dact and schalco, I have only a Elna switch with some HOLCO H4 and a Alps RK27 in shunt configuration.
Stefanoo, thanks to spent time on a review and share it
Yup, especially the Shallco. It is also much, much better than Elma and in fact anything i have ever compared it to. Still, only of interest for analogue as digital domain VC, suitably implemented is even better.
As far as electronic pots go it really boils down to how good are the cmos switches and how good are the resistors. It seems the switches can be pretty good. No idea about the resistors. It is probably not fair to compare them to top quality switched attenuators as convenience and price- wise they are also not comparable.
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Once you have a good setup and a good PS i would imagine ten minutes of listening would suffice. With the last electronic pot i compared to a Shallco switch (DS1666) it took only a few seconds
This DS1666 must perform very bad compared with your Shallco if you hear the difference within a few seconds and hit it away.
But if 2 devices have comparable quality levels, it will take some time to evaluate the differences; you have to go through lots of records to find out each pros and cons.
And sometimes you may be impressed from the first moment, but continued listening will bring you back to the start because you recognized you have been fooled ...
The MUSES must have superb sonic qualities; Wayne has proved this with his XP30.
Therefore Stefanoo will need some time to evaluate all differences compared to his DACT.
Very interesting subject gents, looking forward to an alternative to my existing Alps setup and how it might also compare to my lighter-note/F5 kit.
I will say, as an English first-language kinda dude, that there is a fair bit being lost in translation here. It is just audio after all, I look forward to any questions and answers.
Respect.
Dean
I will say, as an English first-language kinda dude, that there is a fair bit being lost in translation here. It is just audio after all, I look forward to any questions and answers.
Respect.
Dean