Thank you, but I will check it in real world anyway (you know, the sonics😉). I usually use caps I have on hand and I colected quite a few of them over the years.😉 I will be building both of your X SOZ and BSOZ. I was always hoping that SOZ sounds better than Aleph. I will see.😉
Hi Peter Daniel
Your description about the coupling capacitors is good enough to inspire my interest. I am however included in the group who is talking about no difference in the sound. My perception is based on my personal experience upon certain amount of money spent for different caps. I agree that if we change parts, there are changes in the sound. But, how big difference is a real concern. If there is minor difference, I say no difference immediately. You are saying: “One way it sounded very soft and laid back, kind of pleasing, the other way more bright and etched with better defined vocal, but also more fatiguing.” So different...?!?! Are you implying Aleph-X can produce fatiguing sound in case of improper choice of capacitors? I hope not.
Once I tested with Hovland cap (actually, I still have Hovland, Icel, ERO, Wima and Solen). And, I tend to agree that there was somewhat laid-back sound. By the way, in order to test my curiosity certain time later, I returned back to the original cap. Surprisingly, I had the almost same laid-back sound. Probably, there is another factor working to my perception of the sound. I believe it is a time factor. My case is that at the beginning, I might have a feeling of different sound from the different caps, but after certain time, I am getting to have the feeling of no difference. It is very funny.
Experts advised me saying: “If you change this, you will get the laid-back and smooth sound.” Then, I excited and started to dream the sound as described. But, almost always I was disappointed. Probably, my criteria of the sound difference were critical considering the amount of money I spent.
I hope you will not say that Aleph-X produces the fatiguing sound. If really so, build another one. 😉 You know that these days I am enjoying CDs of live rock music. I am enjoying New World of the sound, brightness, details, textures and 3D soundstage, for instance with Nirvana Unplugged, of course, no fatiguing sound. With no particular caps...
Peter, I might be too much subjective...
JH
Your description about the coupling capacitors is good enough to inspire my interest. I am however included in the group who is talking about no difference in the sound. My perception is based on my personal experience upon certain amount of money spent for different caps. I agree that if we change parts, there are changes in the sound. But, how big difference is a real concern. If there is minor difference, I say no difference immediately. You are saying: “One way it sounded very soft and laid back, kind of pleasing, the other way more bright and etched with better defined vocal, but also more fatiguing.” So different...?!?! Are you implying Aleph-X can produce fatiguing sound in case of improper choice of capacitors? I hope not.
Once I tested with Hovland cap (actually, I still have Hovland, Icel, ERO, Wima and Solen). And, I tend to agree that there was somewhat laid-back sound. By the way, in order to test my curiosity certain time later, I returned back to the original cap. Surprisingly, I had the almost same laid-back sound. Probably, there is another factor working to my perception of the sound. I believe it is a time factor. My case is that at the beginning, I might have a feeling of different sound from the different caps, but after certain time, I am getting to have the feeling of no difference. It is very funny.
Experts advised me saying: “If you change this, you will get the laid-back and smooth sound.” Then, I excited and started to dream the sound as described. But, almost always I was disappointed. Probably, my criteria of the sound difference were critical considering the amount of money I spent.
I hope you will not say that Aleph-X produces the fatiguing sound. If really so, build another one. 😉 You know that these days I am enjoying CDs of live rock music. I am enjoying New World of the sound, brightness, details, textures and 3D soundstage, for instance with Nirvana Unplugged, of course, no fatiguing sound. With no particular caps...
Peter, I might be too much subjective...
JH
When I said fatiguing, it was only related to comparison with the other option, right after immediate change, and in absolute terms it probably wasn't.😉 Remember that tests like this are very stressfull and I would be happy if I didn't have to do it, yet, when once experienced and the difference is observed, there is no way out. You just have to do it as long untill you find the right choice. It all depends on your system and probably in many cases it's not that obvious. But as I said, with certain choice of capacitor setup I couldn't listen to industral music, because it sounded that bad. But it was not the amp, but the caps, and although they sound OK now, I still think that without those caps the amp will sound much better. I think that difference in the sound of capacitors is more obvious than difference in sound of Solder Alloys.
You should also know that industrial music is only for industrial people, so don't blame the amps.😉 😉
You should also know that industrial music is only for industrial people, so don't blame the amps.😉 😉
I agree but in somewhat different way that the difference in sound of capacitors is feasible with better possibilities than the difference in sound of solder alloys. More concretely, I do not believe there is difference in sound of solder alloys.😉
It is good to hear that Aleph-X has a beautiful essence without special make up.
What is the industrial music? Do you mean the music produced through the industrial equipment? I would like to know where I am.
JH
It is good to hear that Aleph-X has a beautiful essence without special make up.
What is the industrial music? Do you mean the music produced through the industrial equipment? I would like to know where I am.
JH
Check this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7941&perpage=15&pagenumber=1
You can listen to samples at Amazon.com😉
You can listen to samples at Amazon.com😉
Oh yeah, Industrial: The music that takes out Raven
tweeters.
Ravens last a lot longer on Trip Hop.
😉
tweeters.
Ravens last a lot longer on Trip Hop.
😉
Thanks, I got two definitions about the industrial music:
(1) I believe you are approaching this from a fundamentally flawed position, i.e. that 'industrial' is a definable scene or musical style. 'Industrial' is really nothing more than a catch-all phrase for any music that is created with extreme amounts of electronics and a harsh flavor. It cannot be used to typify any specific sound or lifestyle.
(2) Industrial Music is a type of popular music characterized by heavy percussion, synthesized or electronic melodies, distorted and/or manipulated vocals, and cut-and-paste construction. It is often the product of 'angry white young men,' resonating primarily with themes of alienation, anger, pain, oppression, and control. Often danceable, industrial music has noticeable repetitive rhythms and chant-like choruses, which are often played out in variations of a traditional AABA song structure.
During my reading the above two, about the character of a harsh flavor grasps my eyes. All right, you need to soften the harsh flavor. But, if you make the hash flavor soft and sweet 😉, you might loose the core of the industrial music.
JH
(1) I believe you are approaching this from a fundamentally flawed position, i.e. that 'industrial' is a definable scene or musical style. 'Industrial' is really nothing more than a catch-all phrase for any music that is created with extreme amounts of electronics and a harsh flavor. It cannot be used to typify any specific sound or lifestyle.
(2) Industrial Music is a type of popular music characterized by heavy percussion, synthesized or electronic melodies, distorted and/or manipulated vocals, and cut-and-paste construction. It is often the product of 'angry white young men,' resonating primarily with themes of alienation, anger, pain, oppression, and control. Often danceable, industrial music has noticeable repetitive rhythms and chant-like choruses, which are often played out in variations of a traditional AABA song structure.
During my reading the above two, about the character of a harsh flavor grasps my eyes. All right, you need to soften the harsh flavor. But, if you make the hash flavor soft and sweet 😉, you might loose the core of the industrial music.
JH
It is my experience, that when DAC, amp and speakers are voiced properly, any type of music sounds properly as well.😉
Oh, here is a good example of the Industrial.
I agree. For example, I have four vocals at home. Three males and one female. All of their voices are terrible, particularly the female, and so all type of music are improper. You may laugh, but not loudly please, the female voice will become harsher flavor.
😉
JH
Peter
I agree. For example, I have four vocals at home. Three males and one female. All of their voices are terrible, particularly the female, and so all type of music are improper. You may laugh, but not loudly please, the female voice will become harsher flavor.
😉
JH
I agree: there are all types of improper music, but they still can sound properly (to a certain degree of course).
When I was testing capacitors I wasn't using industrial type of music, but mainstream rock: Dire Straits "On every Street" (seems to be well recorded) and Pink Floyd "The Wall" (another example of good recording. I've been using those 2 CDs for many years and since I am familiar with the sound of certain tracks (6 and 3 correspondingly) I didn't find the need to look for anything else. As I said it took me an hour or two of critical listening and reversing the caps and eventually I compromised and chose one setting which seemed more natural sounding to me. Only when I switched to industrial recordings, I found out how inapropriate my choice was. Which only means that industrial music is even more demanding when it comes to critical listening😉 . I then reversed the paralleled caps in relation to ea. other and I finally found what I was looking for in both types of recordings. No more compromises with Pink Floyds. Also, Bob Dylan's voice finally started to sound 'properly' on 'Desire' album (Hurricane is probably my favourite Dylan's song😉.
I'm not saying this to convince you that capacitors sound different or one type of music is better then the other. I just made an interesting experiment yesterday and I thought some people might be interested or it may be useful to others, experimenting with similar things in audio.
It also doesn't say anything about the amplifier used, because properly designed and executed amp, amplifies only what comes to its input and presents it at its output. If something is here to blame, it's probably too much free time on my hands.😉
When I was testing capacitors I wasn't using industrial type of music, but mainstream rock: Dire Straits "On every Street" (seems to be well recorded) and Pink Floyd "The Wall" (another example of good recording. I've been using those 2 CDs for many years and since I am familiar with the sound of certain tracks (6 and 3 correspondingly) I didn't find the need to look for anything else. As I said it took me an hour or two of critical listening and reversing the caps and eventually I compromised and chose one setting which seemed more natural sounding to me. Only when I switched to industrial recordings, I found out how inapropriate my choice was. Which only means that industrial music is even more demanding when it comes to critical listening😉 . I then reversed the paralleled caps in relation to ea. other and I finally found what I was looking for in both types of recordings. No more compromises with Pink Floyds. Also, Bob Dylan's voice finally started to sound 'properly' on 'Desire' album (Hurricane is probably my favourite Dylan's song😉.
I'm not saying this to convince you that capacitors sound different or one type of music is better then the other. I just made an interesting experiment yesterday and I thought some people might be interested or it may be useful to others, experimenting with similar things in audio.
It also doesn't say anything about the amplifier used, because properly designed and executed amp, amplifies only what comes to its input and presents it at its output. If something is here to blame, it's probably too much free time on my hands.😉
I am an unseen fan of him. I have listened to his music long.
His album Love and Theft? I have listen to it with Zen and ZenV2. It is however with my new amps for me to re-appreciate his real voice, harsh but authoritative as well as apathetic but enthusiastic. No doubt, your talk about the Bob Dylan’s voice explains how good the sound of Aleph-X is.
While you blame your free time, I blame my lack of time.
JH
test with commercial speakers/amps
Hi, last week i had the chance to test the comlete equipment of a friend:
he has just bought this speakers for $10.000, the tube amps and tube pre ams for §9.000, cd player for $2500... all together (with cables and small parts) about $25.000.
And i just build my own speakers and the pass /modified X amps.
Result:mine sound really superb. Not, that the $25.000 equipment sounds bad - no- it really sounds very good. but when i think to the money i spend - my equipment is really extraordinary good. In many aspects mine are better, except of the max volume - but i dont need that loud as Ono`s can play.
And the end is not reached.... 😉
This is an encourging for those who have doubt about reaching that super sound of a superexpensive high-end equippment with diy -ing
thanks to those who are enabling this great forum.
regards,
Ralf
Hi, last week i had the chance to test the comlete equipment of a friend:
he has just bought this speakers for $10.000, the tube amps and tube pre ams for §9.000, cd player for $2500... all together (with cables and small parts) about $25.000.
And i just build my own speakers and the pass /modified X amps.
Result:mine sound really superb. Not, that the $25.000 equipment sounds bad - no- it really sounds very good. but when i think to the money i spend - my equipment is really extraordinary good. In many aspects mine are better, except of the max volume - but i dont need that loud as Ono`s can play.
And the end is not reached.... 😉
This is an encourging for those who have doubt about reaching that super sound of a superexpensive high-end equippment with diy -ing
thanks to those who are enabling this great forum.
regards,
Ralf
Attachments
Henrik
with what values would you start? is 100k o.k or should i go higher -or lower?
Ralf
Henrik said:
with what values would you start? is 100k o.k or should i go higher -or lower?
Ralf
You will double the gain by using 100K, and then You will still have a lot of feedback to the X. If it gives You the needed power, then try lover it as much as You can.
I am happy to read about Your tests against $25.000 equipment.
I have never done this as real swiching A/B tests, but I have had similar expieriences when I have ben listening to others HighEnd gear.
Diy is nice! 😀
I am happy to read about Your tests against $25.000 equipment.
I have never done this as real swiching A/B tests, but I have had similar expieriences when I have ben listening to others HighEnd gear.
Diy is nice! 😀
But You will lower the higend rolloff to -3db at 50kHz (at 39K -3db at 100KHz), this could be audible, so be aware of this when You try it out!
Ralf
I You reach a usable gainlevel by adjusting R122/123, but You then miss some clarity in the high end, let me know, perhaps I can give You some advise on how to raise the high end roll off.
The problem is the lowered outputimpedance from XBOSOZ in combination with the inputcapacitance of the mosfets in the XSOZ, this relation is the hard one to beat.
I You reach a usable gainlevel by adjusting R122/123, but You then miss some clarity in the high end, let me know, perhaps I can give You some advise on how to raise the high end roll off.
The problem is the lowered outputimpedance from XBOSOZ in combination with the inputcapacitance of the mosfets in the XSOZ, this relation is the hard one to beat.
Henrik
o.k i will go to 47k
i need only a little bit more gain. You know, my poti stands on 2 o-clock pm, with my original bosoz (R15 set to 80 Ohms) my pot stands eleven o`clock. And my goal is eleven o`clock.
i try it out. if sound goes bader i will go back to 39k.
thats the reason why i want to go for aleph x.
Whats to say about the parts of my XSOZ: i use two transformers 1500 va, capacity multipler circuit with about 50000uf, Vishay dale power resistors, 50w, shared to 6 resistors of 47Ohms to get 8 Ohm.
i have a variac in front of the two 1500 va transformers, with which i control the power of the both SOz.
the variac can deliver 8 or 10 amps.
when i turn the knob of the variac to 12 o`clock the volume on loudspeakers increases hearable. the same more volume, when i turn the knob to 3 o`clock. but when i turn the knob to 6 or nine o´clock p.m. the speakers dont get louder.
Do you think it`s a power delivery - lack in my psu?
at 12 o`clock the transformers get from my variac about 60volts, tht means my transformers give to the amp about 9 volts, at 3 o`clock they have about 17 volts and so on.
do you think that my variac cannot deliver enough power and thats the reason why the power only increases until the knob is turned half?
or can it be that my virtual battery psu is to weak?
....
regards,
Ralf
o.k i will go to 47k
i need only a little bit more gain. You know, my poti stands on 2 o-clock pm, with my original bosoz (R15 set to 80 Ohms) my pot stands eleven o`clock. And my goal is eleven o`clock.
i try it out. if sound goes bader i will go back to 39k.
thats the reason why i want to go for aleph x.
Whats to say about the parts of my XSOZ: i use two transformers 1500 va, capacity multipler circuit with about 50000uf, Vishay dale power resistors, 50w, shared to 6 resistors of 47Ohms to get 8 Ohm.
i have a variac in front of the two 1500 va transformers, with which i control the power of the both SOz.
the variac can deliver 8 or 10 amps.
when i turn the knob of the variac to 12 o`clock the volume on loudspeakers increases hearable. the same more volume, when i turn the knob to 3 o`clock. but when i turn the knob to 6 or nine o´clock p.m. the speakers dont get louder.
Do you think it`s a power delivery - lack in my psu?
at 12 o`clock the transformers get from my variac about 60volts, tht means my transformers give to the amp about 9 volts, at 3 o`clock they have about 17 volts and so on.
do you think that my variac cannot deliver enough power and thats the reason why the power only increases until the knob is turned half?
or can it be that my virtual battery psu is to weak?
....
regards,
Ralf
Ralf
May be I woun´t be able to answer Your questions until to morrow.
You can make the XBOSOZ able to have higer gain at the same outputimpedance, but then You need to recalculate some other parts. But the essence is, that You try to raise the gain with R122/123, this tells how much gain You need, afterwords we raise the the high end rolloff if nessesary.
So try 50K to 100K and lets see what happens.
May be I woun´t be able to answer Your questions until to morrow.
You can make the XBOSOZ able to have higer gain at the same outputimpedance, but then You need to recalculate some other parts. But the essence is, that You try to raise the gain with R122/123, this tells how much gain You need, afterwords we raise the the high end rolloff if nessesary.
So try 50K to 100K and lets see what happens.