2Kg is quite a lot extra, especially considering the mass of the ATCs in the first place, they are pretty heavy (they make the B&W 801 mids seem like toys). I think the power rating is about the same. It could be that the Volt mid is more comparable in performance with the ATC SL and the PMC mid - neither of which are generally available of course. Didn't Boxer also use Volt mids? It surprises me that main monitors will often have four bass drivers but just one dome mid, they must go very loud. I have often wondered if the Volt and PMC mid were a result of ATC recognising the competition and withdrawing a crucial component from sale. Pure speculation of course but the PMC mids I have are a perfect fit in the WA cabs that are supposed to take the ATCs, this cannot be coincidence.
Do you know which version of the Radial you have? There were (at least) three versions, there was an earlier chassis that had no, or less, protrusion from the casting at the front, there were at least two types of the later driver. Mine are the middle ones (no castellation on the heatsink at the back but the later casting at the front). I wouldn't say mine are completely smooth. I believe there was a Celestion driver that predates the Volts but has a broadly similar chassis.
Do you know which version of the Radial you have? There were (at least) three versions, there was an earlier chassis that had no, or less, protrusion from the casting at the front, there were at least two types of the later driver. Mine are the middle ones (no castellation on the heatsink at the back but the later casting at the front). I wouldn't say mine are completely smooth. I believe there was a Celestion driver that predates the Volts but has a broadly similar chassis.
The only time I've ever seen Boxer monitors was either on Larkins List or Funkyjunk s/h pages. Pictures were not big enough to tell if they were Volts or ATCs.
The ATC, PMC and Volt domes make most 8-10" home HiFi woofer look like toys! ;-)
You might be right that ATC stopped supplying them.
Until a couple of years ago Klein&Hummel used the ATC for their top-of-the-range O500C model.
Then quite suddenly they became the flavour of the month monitor internationally and the O500C disappeared from their line-up. K&H used to remove the faceplate-cum-mini horn and fitted them into a much larger waveguide of their own btw.
I bought my 3143 in '06 I think and from your description I'd say it is the latest model.
The cone is not totally smooth but the ATC cones look almost like they are bubbly. They are also fairly shiny while my Volts are matte. Guess the ATCs are coated or impregnated with something. The cones of the PMCs look more like the ATC cones than mine.
The ATC, PMC and Volt domes make most 8-10" home HiFi woofer look like toys! ;-)
You might be right that ATC stopped supplying them.
Until a couple of years ago Klein&Hummel used the ATC for their top-of-the-range O500C model.
Then quite suddenly they became the flavour of the month monitor internationally and the O500C disappeared from their line-up. K&H used to remove the faceplate-cum-mini horn and fitted them into a much larger waveguide of their own btw.
I bought my 3143 in '06 I think and from your description I'd say it is the latest model.
The cone is not totally smooth but the ATC cones look almost like they are bubbly. They are also fairly shiny while my Volts are matte. Guess the ATCs are coated or impregnated with something. The cones of the PMCs look more like the ATC cones than mine.
My Volts are matte too. I see what you mean about the PMCs, I wouldn't be surprised if they are "doped" with something similar to the dope on the linen domes of the mids. That would give a gloss and also allow PMC to claim the drivers as their own since they have been altered from the "raw" product as supplied by Volt. It wouldn't have the same effect as on the mids but it might possibly stiffen the cones. In all otherways the drivers look like standard Volts to me.
Btw I have found out that WA do a Prestige TL which looks very much like a PMC MB box.....it isn't on their website but I have some info. Just what I wanted!
Btw I have found out that WA do a Prestige TL which looks very much like a PMC MB box.....it isn't on their website but I have some info. Just what I wanted!
I've got my Volts in TLs inspired by (or ripped off, you decide) the XB2s.
Same length but folded differently and stuffed with a mixture of foam tiles and organic long-hair sheep wool sourced from the Peoples Republic of Yorkshire. ;-)
On top of them sit 12" Tannoys, still made in the big, bad city and furnished with 'dub coils' by Roger of Lockwood and his magic fingers.
Incidentally the Tannoy cones look almost identical to the Volt ones but differently terminated. I refer to the whole lot as the Tannoy Birmingham Monitor!
Same length but folded differently and stuffed with a mixture of foam tiles and organic long-hair sheep wool sourced from the Peoples Republic of Yorkshire. ;-)
On top of them sit 12" Tannoys, still made in the big, bad city and furnished with 'dub coils' by Roger of Lockwood and his magic fingers.
Incidentally the Tannoy cones look almost identical to the Volt ones but differently terminated. I refer to the whole lot as the Tannoy Birmingham Monitor!
I'm still waiting for someone to chime in about bi-amping.
I've got the two 100W amps, one is Pass Aleph4 and the other the 100W HQ MOSFET power amp by David White.
One pair will be driving the Bass and the other pair driving Mid & Tweeter.
Which would you use for which duty ?
If I have to I'll build another Aleph 4 but at £1000 in second hand components its not cheap.
I've got the two 100W amps, one is Pass Aleph4 and the other the 100W HQ MOSFET power amp by David White.
One pair will be driving the Bass and the other pair driving Mid & Tweeter.
Which would you use for which duty ?
If I have to I'll build another Aleph 4 but at £1000 in second hand components its not cheap.
Sorry K&D!
We got a bit carried away I think.
I would use the better sounding one (I assume that to be the Aleph) for mid/tweet duty.
Bear in mind that I'm not familiar with the other amp either since I have not at all thought about amps since I found MC2 Audio ones.
Should they both sound as good as each other I'd use the one with the lower output impedance (ie higher damping factor) on bass.
Sorry again about getting so off topic!
Please don't tell our dark overlord CAL THE MODERATOR about this. We'll never do it again, I swear! ;-)
We got a bit carried away I think.
I would use the better sounding one (I assume that to be the Aleph) for mid/tweet duty.
Bear in mind that I'm not familiar with the other amp either since I have not at all thought about amps since I found MC2 Audio ones.
Should they both sound as good as each other I'd use the one with the lower output impedance (ie higher damping factor) on bass.
Sorry again about getting so off topic!
Please don't tell our dark overlord CAL THE MODERATOR about this. We'll never do it again, I swear! ;-)
Where is the crossover split? The Rod Elliott article suggests that the power requirement is 50/50 at 300Hz. If the crossover is higher, it may be worth using the Pass for mid/HF simply because it will run less hot.
The David White MOSFET should be good, so you' may find there isn't too much difference in sound either way.
It's a shame the White amplifiers are no longer available (I think he's retired and stopped selling kits) but the larger MOSFET design on Elliott's site will also be good.
Last edited:
Charles is right, the lower crossover is at 400Hz.
The second crossover is at 3800Hz.
Now I'm confused. Although I accept that the tweeter uses less power than the bass driver, how do you set up amplifiers with different gains to each driver ?
I'm thinking about going the whole hog and tri-amp the Prestige.
I've got two 100W amps (by the way the White amplifier is nowhere near as good as the Aleph by quite a long way). I could use a less powerful F4 or F5 (25W) for the tweeters.
The second crossover is at 3800Hz.
Now I'm confused. Although I accept that the tweeter uses less power than the bass driver, how do you set up amplifiers with different gains to each driver ?
I'm thinking about going the whole hog and tri-amp the Prestige.
I've got two 100W amps (by the way the White amplifier is nowhere near as good as the Aleph by quite a long way). I could use a less powerful F4 or F5 (25W) for the tweeters.
The crossover or amps or both should have some form of gain control.
I assume those amps, being aimed at HifI, do not have that so you would have to rely on whatever crossover you are going to use.
Within a passive one this is usually done with resistors/L-pads.
Charles, I think you missed the point of my question.
I'm going to be using an active crossover and six amplifiers.
If I feed a swept frequency sweep into the active crossover, I would have expected that the dB level would be the same at all frequencies.
However, I read that the higher frequency drivers require less power.
All the gain control to each driver will be done within the active crossover.
I'm going to be using an active crossover and six amplifiers.
If I feed a swept frequency sweep into the active crossover, I would have expected that the dB level would be the same at all frequencies.
However, I read that the higher frequency drivers require less power.
All the gain control to each driver will be done within the active crossover.
Assuming for simplicity sake that all your drivers have the same sensitivity and a 2way speaker what you are dealing with is two amps with different overall gains say the bass amp has a gain of 30dB and the treble amp 26dB.
In this case you have to reduce the bass by 4dB at the crossover to get a flat, level output.
In my own case the bass amp has 32dB gain, the treble amp 30dB while the woofer has a sensitivity of 95dB/1W and the treble 107dB. Thats is 12dB difference between the drivers minus 2dB difference in gain hence I had to knock back the treble amp by 10dB to make it work properly.
It possibly seems a bit counter-intuitive but it works. Bear in mind that music behaves roughly like pink noise which drops by 3dB/oct.
Others might be able to explain it better than me though.
In this case you have to reduce the bass by 4dB at the crossover to get a flat, level output.
In my own case the bass amp has 32dB gain, the treble amp 30dB while the woofer has a sensitivity of 95dB/1W and the treble 107dB. Thats is 12dB difference between the drivers minus 2dB difference in gain hence I had to knock back the treble amp by 10dB to make it work properly.
It possibly seems a bit counter-intuitive but it works. Bear in mind that music behaves roughly like pink noise which drops by 3dB/oct.
Others might be able to explain it better than me though.
So I'm right then. All drivers should be producing the same dB level.
Tweeter is 94dB @ 2.83V / 1m
Mid is 92dB @ 2.83V / 1m
Bass is 91dB @ 2.83V / 1m
So as long as the amps are adjusted correctly, with a level input frequency sweep, I should expect all drivers to be producing the same level output.
I was a bit confused as to why the tweeter would require so much less power than the bass to produce the same volume but now I can see that the former is 3dB more sensitive so requires 1/10 of the power. So a 25W F5 would be more than adequate in this case.
Tweeter is 94dB @ 2.83V / 1m
Mid is 92dB @ 2.83V / 1m
Bass is 91dB @ 2.83V / 1m
So as long as the amps are adjusted correctly, with a level input frequency sweep, I should expect all drivers to be producing the same level output.
I was a bit confused as to why the tweeter would require so much less power than the bass to produce the same volume but now I can see that the former is 3dB more sensitive so requires 1/10 of the power. So a 25W F5 would be more than adequate in this case.
From what I've read.
Both the D White amp and the Aleph 4 have good damping factors. The Aleph 4 is far more detailed than the D White.
Sub 400Hz the D White would probably be ideal handling the Bass driver leaving the sensitive part of the audio spectrum (400Hz - 3800Hz in this case) to the Aleph 4.
Neither will have a difficult load to drive as they are connected directly to the drivers.
I'll build a new F5 to handle the tweeters.
Both the D White amp and the Aleph 4 have good damping factors. The Aleph 4 is far more detailed than the D White.
Sub 400Hz the D White would probably be ideal handling the Bass driver leaving the sensitive part of the audio spectrum (400Hz - 3800Hz in this case) to the Aleph 4.
Neither will have a difficult load to drive as they are connected directly to the drivers.
I'll build a new F5 to handle the tweeters.
WA Prestige Platinum with fully active crossover and amps? You are going to be amazed at what you haven't been hearing all these years!
Btw how do you intend getting a piano black finish? I'm assuming that you are buying a flat-pack mdf kit? I've heard that mdf is a pain to get a good finish on so I'm interested.
What is your third set of amps going to be? Which active crossover will you use?
Btw how do you intend getting a piano black finish? I'm assuming that you are buying a flat-pack mdf kit? I've heard that mdf is a pain to get a good finish on so I'm interested.
What is your third set of amps going to be? Which active crossover will you use?
I'm still deciding on the active crossover.
Piano black, I'm using plain MDF, filling it with car body filler, then spraying flat black with acrylic paint. Then I'm going to try French polishing them with black shellac.
I've never done it before so I've got my fingers crossed.
Third set of amps for the tweeters will probably be Pass F4 or F5 as I'm so in love with my Aleph 4.
Piano black, I'm using plain MDF, filling it with car body filler, then spraying flat black with acrylic paint. Then I'm going to try French polishing them with black shellac.
I've never done it before so I've got my fingers crossed.
Third set of amps for the tweeters will probably be Pass F4 or F5 as I'm so in love with my Aleph 4.
I also have piano black but it was a bit old and needed refinishing. I was advised (by someone who paints F1 cars!) to touch up the missing paint with gloss black model paint and rub down with Brasso (!) to get a very flat finish, and then to use high gloss shoe polish to make it really shine. After that to use beeswax. You can literally see your reflection in the finish.
Aleph sounds good. You might think about trying my first suggestion and get a Behringer CX3400 from such companies as Amazon (only £72 at the moment!) you might think it too inexpensive but its performance is FAR better than it should be at the price and you'll get your money back if you sell it later. It has a lot of control over x-over frequencies and you can also use it to adjust the levels (and delay for the bass) of each pass band independently. It's definitely worth it for the experimenting you can do with frequencies and levels until you decide on the final settings and instal a dedicated x-over. The DEQ2496 also has self-calibrating EQ on it. I think the previously mentioned B&W active system used this but there is a difficulty with global volume control I believe.
(
Aleph sounds good. You might think about trying my first suggestion and get a Behringer CX3400 from such companies as Amazon (only £72 at the moment!) you might think it too inexpensive but its performance is FAR better than it should be at the price and you'll get your money back if you sell it later. It has a lot of control over x-over frequencies and you can also use it to adjust the levels (and delay for the bass) of each pass band independently. It's definitely worth it for the experimenting you can do with frequencies and levels until you decide on the final settings and instal a dedicated x-over. The DEQ2496 also has self-calibrating EQ on it. I think the previously mentioned B&W active system used this but there is a difficulty with global volume control I believe.
(
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.