yes, of course, that's exactly why I have admitted that perhaps it "sounds just fine"
and from a subjective standpoint any discussion here is simply meaningless
Three way with 2" compression driver in a horn is the best thing you could do to avoid the xover point anywhere near 1-4KHz area and more. Good 2" compression driver can extend easily from 600 to 7000Hz. That solves all of the problems mentioned here. The thing is - not all of the people loves the sound of the compression driver in a horn - that is subjective. But saying that 2" compression driver has any problems crossing lover than 1KHz and higher than 4KHz is simply ignorant.
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Other than perhaps not being able to space the pair of drivers at a sufficiently small distance apart, is there anything else problematic about a crossover frequency in the high range (>5 kHz)?
Just curious, as I've done it with a 4 way system that I designed and built, and to my ears the design works successfully.
a "supertweeter" is seen often with horns and fullranges. I see it as the star on a Christmas tree, decoration but quite relevant. It supports the higly directive mid driver mostly in power response and room decay/csd. The effect is stronger than one would guesss by looking at on-axis response only.
I have seen many comments that positioning is not so critical and it is not even necessary to get xo slopes summing, even better not to even try by using no lowpass for the mid and just a protective series cap for the tweeter (and something to match levels. This is possible only if the mid does not have a cone breakup problem.
Many 3" aluminium fullranges exhibit cone breakup around 15kHz, and it gives sparkle to sound because the breakup "ringing" has wide dispersion! Even paper fullranges might have this peaking 5F8422T01-10F8414G10
I have seen many comments that positioning is not so critical and it is not even necessary to get xo slopes summing, even better not to even try by using no lowpass for the mid and just a protective series cap for the tweeter (and something to match levels. This is possible only if the mid does not have a cone breakup problem.
Many 3" aluminium fullranges exhibit cone breakup around 15kHz, and it gives sparkle to sound because the breakup "ringing" has wide dispersion! Even paper fullranges might have this peaking 5F8422T01-10F8414G10
Agree. I wrote few pages ago that 12" and CD+ large WG would solve the problem and that i would choose to go that routhe but from what i can see so far, the OP doesn't want to use that kind of system and is looking for direct radiator midrange that can be xovered out of the 1-4KHz range. I can't be much of a help in that area - but i respect his wishes and keep reading the thread to see what will come up of this.
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.....agreed......and as such there doesn't seem to be much if any selection of dynamic, efficient midrange drivers that can play from 400hz to 4kz that are 4" or less in size. This beast just doesn't exist. Multiple 3-4" drivers would be the only solution........and not without other problems.
I don't necessarily disagree with Earl's method of avoidance with a two way crossed below 1khz........it's HIS way of solving the problem introduced by this thread.
Now as to what I come up with as a solution or an attempt at one?......working on it!
With the phase time corrrection of nowadays DSP : could it be possible to put a B&G Neo 8s 94 db planar in front of a 12" ?
Of course the planar need to be back sealed, but does its body can act also as a break up resonances passive device for the uppers frequencies of some 12" ?
In the spirit of a Phil Jones's design with the Boston Acoustic Lynnfield 500L with the 5" alum mid !
I see many pro paper driver has also high resonances with increased db in the highs !
Of course the planar need to be back sealed, but does its body can act also as a break up resonances passive device for the uppers frequencies of some 12" ?
In the spirit of a Phil Jones's design with the Boston Acoustic Lynnfield 500L with the 5" alum mid !
I see many pro paper driver has also high resonances with increased db in the highs !
You can do fine without another tweeter too when using a 2" driver. You loose sensitivity because there's not much support above 5 KHz, but I doubt it will matter much for indoor use.
Here's a 2" driver in a Klipsch horn measured without any EQ. There's enough output here to 16 KHz. So what's the problem?
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Off axis response of a larger format driver isn't that good so VHF driver is needed.
The thing is that nobody says that 2" compression driver in a horn isn't good enough and that its directivity can't be matched to VHF driver. It's just harder to do that than using a smaller driver and not having to care about another xover point and directivity matching - but it isn't impossible.
For my ultimate system i would use 12" midbass crossed to a 2" compression driver in a horn at 500Hz and VHF driver that starts at about 7-10KHz. That can be a little tricky regarding xover but results would be the best there are - for me at least. In adition, few subs to do the 20-80Hz properly. With good constant directivity horn (or 2" waveguide - if anyone ever makes it) matched to the directivity of the VHF that has the potential to be great loudspeaker.
Oris Swing is closest i've heard to that (at this moment imaginary) system and it sounds great.
The thing is that nobody says that 2" compression driver in a horn isn't good enough and that its directivity can't be matched to VHF driver. It's just harder to do that than using a smaller driver and not having to care about another xover point and directivity matching - but it isn't impossible.
For my ultimate system i would use 12" midbass crossed to a 2" compression driver in a horn at 500Hz and VHF driver that starts at about 7-10KHz. That can be a little tricky regarding xover but results would be the best there are - for me at least. In adition, few subs to do the 20-80Hz properly. With good constant directivity horn (or 2" waveguide - if anyone ever makes it) matched to the directivity of the VHF that has the potential to be great loudspeaker.
Oris Swing is closest i've heard to that (at this moment imaginary) system and it sounds great.
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Only coaxial can do that properly in a very small room. If the room is bigger and listening distance further away from the loudspeaker i don't see the problem of using VHF driver xovered at 7-10KHz. Further away from the loudspeaker you are, less relevant C to C distance becomes.
That distance is not too large. If you take Yuichi A290S, height of the horn is 23cm, half of that is 11.5cm + half of the VHF driver diameter and that is C to C distance. I haven't considered large axisymmetrical horns if that is what confused you.
That distance is not too large. If you take Yuichi A290S, height of the horn is 23cm, half of that is 11.5cm + half of the VHF driver diameter and that is C to C distance. I haven't considered large axisymmetrical horns if that is what confused you.
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Yes, but as Earl has mentioned, if one wants to get controlled directivity down to low enough frequencies you need large systems. Just because it's the 21st century doesn't mean that the laws of physics have changed.
I mean to an extent it is true that technology has improved to the point where we can get more output out of smaller drivers that can more easily handle lots of power, but sometimes you just have to go big.
I couldn't agree more but there is a problem. When i live to hear the sound large loudspeakers are giving me from a small loudspeaker i'll be the first one to sell my speakers and buy the new ones.
I always looked at the loudspeakers as the center of any system. They are in direct interaction with our ears. The thing is that dynamic loudspeakers have not substantially changed since 1890 so we are bounded by imperfection of their design.
The degradation of sound that happened in last 30 years was followed by promoting the loudspeakers that were chosen by interior designers - not taking into consideration the sound itself but looks only. Some of the manufacturers managed to survive by making their design everything but ordinary (Bang&Olufsen) but many of them didn't. That is why we have once a great company in HiFi like JBL that survives today mostly on car audio. The things are looking better for HiFi in last couple of years i think but i'm affraid that we wont be seeing some small loudspeakers that plays as nice and with such authority like large ones. At the moment profit is everything and very little money is invested for researching the area of acoustics that is interesting to 20 or 30 thousand enthusiasts. Others are ready to take the looks before sound and as long the speakers as we know them are selling - things will stay the same.
But i would like to be a witness of some important breakthrough in loudspeaker technology that will shrink them and allow them to keep the quality of sound. And if that happens i will sell my big old stuff in a blink of an eye because the ultimate goal is sound - i'm not compensating anything 😀
You know what ? First thing in the morning i'm going to store to buy the AKG Q701 and get done with it. All that talk about speaker position, xover phase and frequencies, room interaction, younameit... 🙂
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there are quite nice tweeters that can handle stuff from just about 1 Khz , so ..
I'd say given that tweeter, a nice 6.5 " midbass, and a real sub should work quite well.
I'd say given that tweeter, a nice 6.5 " midbass, and a real sub should work quite well.
There are some facts speakers came to so little systems :
The flats and houses for the majority became smaller, but I'm not sure this is the cause. A fact is a majority of rooms just don't need too low register and system with 2 to 4 m in front of speakers are the majority. Not easy for horns and 15" !
The purchasers and marketings people gave more importance; financial results are more dreamed than goods by people who make it ! With the benefits they call consultants who repeat the same !
For the same reason miniaturisation become the rule to seduce people (electronic goods)
Mobility have incresead
Wemen took the power and the WAF became a fact like in car industry ! (and we want the peace at home !)
DOes the idea of a B&G Neo 8 s in front of a 12" mid bass with a Xo around 400 to 700 a very bad idea ? Why ? Time/phase correction with DSP is not enough to try it, can we have another problem also ?
The flats and houses for the majority became smaller, but I'm not sure this is the cause. A fact is a majority of rooms just don't need too low register and system with 2 to 4 m in front of speakers are the majority. Not easy for horns and 15" !
The purchasers and marketings people gave more importance; financial results are more dreamed than goods by people who make it ! With the benefits they call consultants who repeat the same !
For the same reason miniaturisation become the rule to seduce people (electronic goods)
Mobility have incresead
Wemen took the power and the WAF became a fact like in car industry ! (and we want the peace at home !)
DOes the idea of a B&G Neo 8 s in front of a 12" mid bass with a Xo around 400 to 700 a very bad idea ? Why ? Time/phase correction with DSP is not enough to try it, can we have another problem also ?
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Hi Mr Scott,
Why mid bass have to be horned, for efficienty or for something else ? (polar response, anything else ?)
Directivity brings up some interesting questions.....which have been debated here in other threads before. Let's take ribbons for example with excellent horizontal directivity......but people complain of the vertical. Now I don't know about you but when I listen to music as a dedicated activity or 'critical' listening, I sit down in my favorite spot like a good boy and listen. I don't work about what it sounds like when I stand up or lie on the floor. I DO like that I'm not hearing the HF energy bouncing off the ceiling like a dome tweeters radiation pattern.
Now there's lots more positives for ribbons in the 4khz and up range......very low HD, efficiency, compact size, fantastic CSD, exceptional impulse response and near linear impedance. To me, ribbons when used properly appear to be the ideal home HF device solution. It's what we do below 4khz that's a problem....or perceived as such.
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