Hey, don't associate me with either preference! I was coming down on the fence, and just tried to explain why one might sound better than the other, dependent on source material.
Or is this just an omni-appreciation society?
*S* Nice to see some new 'faces' around here, and some 'spirited discussion'...
Sumotan, yes, omnis' do require a bit of getting used to. And they do require care in placement, but from what I've seen and what I gather from commentary about the subject with regard to 'typical' speakers, more or less the same routine....just a different approach. They seem to prefer 'minimalist' spaces, but most listening spaces seem to lean that way anyway.
One approach that I've kept is one espoused by Linkwitz; "Ignore the room." Now, that does come off as illogical with current approaches. But looking over his Pluto units, which are omnis more in line with the ones marketed by Ohm, it begins to make sense. His space is somewhat typical for an average home. He runs front and rear pairs; check. Active EQ; well, perhaps. I do....set to flat response as close as an omni will allow. They ARE difficult to measure, but one can get a decent approximate. Read each independently, sum the group, and run the average...
I'm used to dipoles, so perhaps my brain (well, what's still clocking in on waking *G*) has gotten used to 'using the room' to an advantage. My current Walsh's are small in comparison to the originals; larger than the German Physiks' units but not by a huge degree. The surface area is roughly equivalent to a 10" speaker. I've noticed that by running more than a pair, they 'augment' each other in 'apparent' output. By running a small sub ( I think 8" qualifies ), there's more than enough low frequencies to make me happy with nearly anything I can throw at them...
If there's anything that I feel they lack, it's a certain amount of upper range that missing IMHO. I'm attacking that by adding a smaller Walsh vertically aligned to kept phasing essentially correct. And, as far as my ancient and abused ears can tell, it works. The use of a cone or dome unit just doesn't seem correct, to add a directional radiator above an omni....MHO, a cheap 'cop out' and illogical.
Never have had an opportunity to listen to ANY other omni that's currently on the market. And, in some ways, I'm OK with that... I'd rather take that 'road less traveled' and make my own mistakes and discoveries. I'm using materials that might seem odd, but have been purposely selected for their qualities....
I've always felt there's room for a fresh approach to things. A lot of current design is just the 'same old same old' with a fresh finish and better manufacturing applied. Although I've never heard a pair of MBL's, I applaud their approach. A radical design that might be the closest thing to a 'point source' other than a plasma unit....which unfortunately leaves one with the former being insanely pricey, the latter not healthy to be around for extended periods. *L*
Anyway....I'll get off this soapbox now. Hope you've enjoyed the philosophy lesson and stayed awake during class. Pop quiz on Friday...*L*
As I've threatened, I'm finally poised to move forward with my ongoing project, and have added another to take another path that beckons....
...and please don't touch that dial....*S*
Sumotan, yes, omnis' do require a bit of getting used to. And they do require care in placement, but from what I've seen and what I gather from commentary about the subject with regard to 'typical' speakers, more or less the same routine....just a different approach. They seem to prefer 'minimalist' spaces, but most listening spaces seem to lean that way anyway.
One approach that I've kept is one espoused by Linkwitz; "Ignore the room." Now, that does come off as illogical with current approaches. But looking over his Pluto units, which are omnis more in line with the ones marketed by Ohm, it begins to make sense. His space is somewhat typical for an average home. He runs front and rear pairs; check. Active EQ; well, perhaps. I do....set to flat response as close as an omni will allow. They ARE difficult to measure, but one can get a decent approximate. Read each independently, sum the group, and run the average...
I'm used to dipoles, so perhaps my brain (well, what's still clocking in on waking *G*) has gotten used to 'using the room' to an advantage. My current Walsh's are small in comparison to the originals; larger than the German Physiks' units but not by a huge degree. The surface area is roughly equivalent to a 10" speaker. I've noticed that by running more than a pair, they 'augment' each other in 'apparent' output. By running a small sub ( I think 8" qualifies ), there's more than enough low frequencies to make me happy with nearly anything I can throw at them...
If there's anything that I feel they lack, it's a certain amount of upper range that missing IMHO. I'm attacking that by adding a smaller Walsh vertically aligned to kept phasing essentially correct. And, as far as my ancient and abused ears can tell, it works. The use of a cone or dome unit just doesn't seem correct, to add a directional radiator above an omni....MHO, a cheap 'cop out' and illogical.
Never have had an opportunity to listen to ANY other omni that's currently on the market. And, in some ways, I'm OK with that... I'd rather take that 'road less traveled' and make my own mistakes and discoveries. I'm using materials that might seem odd, but have been purposely selected for their qualities....
I've always felt there's room for a fresh approach to things. A lot of current design is just the 'same old same old' with a fresh finish and better manufacturing applied. Although I've never heard a pair of MBL's, I applaud their approach. A radical design that might be the closest thing to a 'point source' other than a plasma unit....which unfortunately leaves one with the former being insanely pricey, the latter not healthy to be around for extended periods. *L*
Anyway....I'll get off this soapbox now. Hope you've enjoyed the philosophy lesson and stayed awake during class. Pop quiz on Friday...*L*
As I've threatened, I'm finally poised to move forward with my ongoing project, and have added another to take another path that beckons....
...and please don't touch that dial....*S*
Keith, no problem...*G* As to mood, your buddy's situation, and the general state of our society in general...I just chalk it up to Hunter Thompson's remark:
"When the going gets tough, the tough get weird."
I've got 'personal issues' ongoing that alternately **** or depress...business is good, but it keeps me from playing with my little mutant speakers...spouse of 35ish years drives me crazy both positively and negatively which can change states on a dime that's unfortunately in my pocket, and I'm sure I'm back at her as well...
SOS, different bread. *L* One can only hope to get used to the taste....
"When the going gets tough, the tough get weird."
I've got 'personal issues' ongoing that alternately **** or depress...business is good, but it keeps me from playing with my little mutant speakers...spouse of 35ish years drives me crazy both positively and negatively which can change states on a dime that's unfortunately in my pocket, and I'm sure I'm back at her as well...
SOS, different bread. *L* One can only hope to get used to the taste....
...figures....read recently that Facebook, that runs a lot of AI's to make the thing run, had a freak-out shut-down on a portion of their system. Seems a couple of them had started to 'talk to each other', but in a gibberish that couldn't be understood by us 'wet ware' types....
"I'll be back." No kidding, can't wait. Hand on the plug, run if you can, bytebreath....
"I'll be back." No kidding, can't wait. Hand on the plug, run if you can, bytebreath....
Hi Jerry,
I've got a pair of Duevels Planets in the living room while my audio room
which is my bed room lol I listen to a pair of ML Odyssey. One day I was curious
so brought up the Planet to test in my audio room, guess what it didn't work well.
Tried all speaker placement still no improvement very very weird. The problem was
music appeared from floor level, vocals too . The feeling was like looking down at the
performers in a theater . Mind you my room isn't small, it's 21x24 ft. Perhaps the Walsh
speaker are a better choice by design. what's really nice about the Bella Luna is the use
of a horn loaded pro driver. It really brings realism & attack to instruments. Thanks for
sharing your views
Cheers
I've got a pair of Duevels Planets in the living room while my audio room
which is my bed room lol I listen to a pair of ML Odyssey. One day I was curious
so brought up the Planet to test in my audio room, guess what it didn't work well.
Tried all speaker placement still no improvement very very weird. The problem was
music appeared from floor level, vocals too . The feeling was like looking down at the
performers in a theater . Mind you my room isn't small, it's 21x24 ft. Perhaps the Walsh
speaker are a better choice by design. what's really nice about the Bella Luna is the use
of a horn loaded pro driver. It really brings realism & attack to instruments. Thanks for
sharing your views
Cheers
The Planets: Best done by Holst...
Sumo, to be honest, when I first saw that speaker I thought "Novel, but..."
The following is MHO...I'm not an 'audiologist', but I'll try to act like one.
First off, a pair of direct radiating drivers, aimed at the ceiling...well, if you live up there, terrific. Then there's the 'balls'...I'll avoid the obvious pun on that.
There's the known quality of a direct driver that, as frequency rises, the more the sound will 'beam' much like a flashlight that can focus from a broad dispersed pattern (bass) to a narrow focus (highs). There's variations due to design and materials, but generally that's why we get the 'sweet spot'. We 'toe in' our speakers to varying degrees to improve on that with some, others not so much...
Now....pointing the drivers vertically, and bouncing the waveforms off a curved surface of a ball, simple geometry suggests that the higher frequencies will tend to reflect at less than a right angle (say, the height of said ball off the floor). Now, I don't know the overall height of the D.P.'s, but I'd suspect that the higher frequencies Are ending up at your ankles....
Since you've noted that they sound better at floor level, I suspect my suspicions are correct. As an experiment, you might try elevating them in some 'acceptable fashion' (SAF enters into this, if you have that issue...) to see if that helps.
I'm not trying to be funny about your situation...it's just what I observe about 'things' and their design intent. The D.P.'s look cool, but seem to have an inherent inconsistency in their function. And my apologies if I'm right....
I've got a built-in 'issue' with bouncing sound waves off any surface in the path of the speaker between the listener. We're so used to direct radiators, and the 'pristine' aspects of those waveforms, that anything introduced into that path would seem to 'muddy' the output. Our ears are very subtle in hearing 'ques' as to location, details, and nuance. I don't argue with others in these forums as to What they hear, or How, and to even what they employ to create that experience. IMHO it seems it's taken to extremes that I either can't afford nor would wish to due to a practical nature based on the limits of my own ears and listening environment(s).
That being said....and the reason I like Walsh-style speakers...
The waveforms leave the cone at a right angle; they can't help not to. It's physics.. Take a look at the patent, which is public...Google...
Ideally, the best height for one is about knee-high or slightly higher, based on how far away you are from it...
Yes, they 'spray' the room. OK...show me an musical instrument that doesn't do just that to some degree. Wind instruments do have 'directionality', but even those can be heard 'off-axis'. And anything subject to being recorded renders most arguments about 'spatiality' almost moot. Again, IMHO... We all have some degree of acknowledgement about 'studio tricks', mic placement, all that....
Sumo, I could rant 'n rave about the subject, and turn this forum location into just another multi-page argument...yet another place that a few will go on about issues that remind me more about how many angels will fit on the head of a pin....
Only for the committed, or those who might be considered for that. *G* I suspect that I might be viewed as such, but...*shrug*
We ALL have our preferences....and viva la difference. We're only human after all....*S* Keeps it interesting, and certainly not quiet....
*L* I doubt if all of that helps, but at least my stance has some clarity to those who haven't fallen asleep or left by now. *L*
BTW...I tried turning a Walsh 'upside down'...same thing happens... it sprays your feet. Big Fail...
Sumo, to be honest, when I first saw that speaker I thought "Novel, but..."
The following is MHO...I'm not an 'audiologist', but I'll try to act like one.
First off, a pair of direct radiating drivers, aimed at the ceiling...well, if you live up there, terrific. Then there's the 'balls'...I'll avoid the obvious pun on that.
There's the known quality of a direct driver that, as frequency rises, the more the sound will 'beam' much like a flashlight that can focus from a broad dispersed pattern (bass) to a narrow focus (highs). There's variations due to design and materials, but generally that's why we get the 'sweet spot'. We 'toe in' our speakers to varying degrees to improve on that with some, others not so much...
Now....pointing the drivers vertically, and bouncing the waveforms off a curved surface of a ball, simple geometry suggests that the higher frequencies will tend to reflect at less than a right angle (say, the height of said ball off the floor). Now, I don't know the overall height of the D.P.'s, but I'd suspect that the higher frequencies Are ending up at your ankles....
Since you've noted that they sound better at floor level, I suspect my suspicions are correct. As an experiment, you might try elevating them in some 'acceptable fashion' (SAF enters into this, if you have that issue
...) to see if that helps. I'm not trying to be funny about your situation...it's just what I observe about 'things' and their design intent. The D.P.'s look cool, but seem to have an inherent inconsistency in their function. And my apologies if I'm right....
I've got a built-in 'issue' with bouncing sound waves off any surface in the path of the speaker between the listener. We're so used to direct radiators, and the 'pristine' aspects of those waveforms, that anything introduced into that path would seem to 'muddy' the output. Our ears are very subtle in hearing 'ques' as to location, details, and nuance. I don't argue with others in these forums as to What they hear, or How, and to even what they employ to create that experience. IMHO it seems it's taken to extremes that I either can't afford nor would wish to due to a practical nature based on the limits of my own ears and listening environment(s).
That being said....and the reason I like Walsh-style speakers...
The waveforms leave the cone at a right angle; they can't help not to. It's physics.. Take a look at the patent, which is public...Google...
Ideally, the best height for one is about knee-high or slightly higher, based on how far away you are from it...
Yes, they 'spray' the room. OK...show me an musical instrument that doesn't do just that to some degree. Wind instruments do have 'directionality', but even those can be heard 'off-axis'. And anything subject to being recorded renders most arguments about 'spatiality' almost moot. Again, IMHO... We all have some degree of acknowledgement about 'studio tricks', mic placement, all that....
Sumo, I could rant 'n rave about the subject, and turn this forum location into just another multi-page argument...yet another place that a few will go on about issues that remind me more about how many angels will fit on the head of a pin....
Only for the committed, or those who might be considered for that. *G* I suspect that I might be viewed as such, but...*shrug*
We ALL have our preferences....and viva la difference. We're only human after all....*S* Keeps it interesting, and certainly not quiet....
*L* I doubt if all of that helps, but at least my stance has some clarity to those who haven't fallen asleep or left by now. *L*
BTW...I tried turning a Walsh 'upside down'...same thing happens... it sprays your feet. Big Fail...
Hi Jerry
Actually this floor level sound of the DP only happens in my Audio room.
In the living room it sounds normal. Yes I did elevate the speakers to rest
as well but to not avail. I believe the problem might be the bass vent which
is located at the bottom of the cabinet firing down towards the floor. In any
case it was just a trial. I don't use the DP in my audio room. Was reading up
on the Walsh speaker & it intrigues me. Hows the bass & the sound of the bass
Jerry ? It fires into a quater wave Tl cabinet ??? I see that there's a gentleman
making up to date version. Should sound better then the German Physiks version I think
Cheers
Actually this floor level sound of the DP only happens in my Audio room.
In the living room it sounds normal. Yes I did elevate the speakers to rest
as well but to not avail. I believe the problem might be the bass vent which
is located at the bottom of the cabinet firing down towards the floor. In any
case it was just a trial. I don't use the DP in my audio room. Was reading up
on the Walsh speaker & it intrigues me. Hows the bass & the sound of the bass
Jerry ? It fires into a quater wave Tl cabinet ??? I see that there's a gentleman
making up to date version. Should sound better then the German Physiks version I think
Cheers
Mmmm....let me digest this for awhile...information about spaces I'm not privy to, nor any other direct experience. *G* Doctors don't diagnose over the phone, and I'll pause before trying make an educated guess as to WTF is going on. I'll think you'll agree...
Bass for the 'larger' units I'm running goes down to about 150hz. Below that I've got a small sub filling in the bottom. I think that expecting one driver to go from 20K hz down to even 40 hz is nutz. It doesn't make sense to try to move that sort of mass that fast to 'cover' both ends of the spectrum decently...
What's the height of the ceilings in both spaces, BTW? Just curious....
Bass for the 'larger' units I'm running goes down to about 150hz. Below that I've got a small sub filling in the bottom. I think that expecting one driver to go from 20K hz down to even 40 hz is nutz. It doesn't make sense to try to move that sort of mass that fast to 'cover' both ends of the spectrum decently...
What's the height of the ceilings in both spaces, BTW? Just curious....
But they are already starting using the phone. There are more & more diagnostic kit being attached to iPhones that let doctors diagnose remotely.
dave
Hi Jerry
Ceiling height for both places about 9.5 ft.
Yep got my head scratching as well. Years
ago when leaving in another house, I had
a pair of Unity Audio speakers on audition
it sounded good but when I brought it home
no bass, the design didn't work in my room,
change to Focal speakers bass was all there.
So I believe what Im experiencing now are
room nodes behavior. In Asia most of our
buildings, house are all brick or concrete
As with many American speakers with bass
driver mounted low to the floor does not
work well here. Solution is to lift the speakers
off the floor by minimum 4-6 inches for not
bass will sound one note , lumpy & does not
go deep
Cheers
Ceiling height for both places about 9.5 ft.
Yep got my head scratching as well. Years
ago when leaving in another house, I had
a pair of Unity Audio speakers on audition
it sounded good but when I brought it home
no bass, the design didn't work in my room,
change to Focal speakers bass was all there.
So I believe what Im experiencing now are
room nodes behavior. In Asia most of our
buildings, house are all brick or concrete
As with many American speakers with bass
driver mounted low to the floor does not
work well here. Solution is to lift the speakers
off the floor by minimum 4-6 inches for not
bass will sound one note , lumpy & does not
go deep
Cheers
was it acoustically treated somehow?
On the contrary to what's needed for conventional DR speakers, OMNIs relies completely on room reflections, and requires fairly reflective room walls to work well.
(and, once again... mind placement: OMNIs requires to be placed almost "in the middle" of the room, not near one wall).
Well speaker pacement is 5ft away from the back wall, side walls are event further.
My Ml sounds wondeful in this room . Room is fairly live with only bass trap at each
corner & some diffusors at the back wall. I despise & dislike dead or heavily acoustically t
treated rooms cause it takes the life away from the music.
Cheers UniMax
My Ml sounds wondeful in this room . Room is fairly live with only bass trap at each
corner & some diffusors at the back wall. I despise & dislike dead or heavily acoustically t
treated rooms cause it takes the life away from the music.
Cheers UniMax
I thought the standard answer to the original question is that the stereo image is not as well presented with omnis.
I put far less importance on the stereo image than most, (and just view it as an artificial construct a lot of the time) So the few times I have heard omnis I have judged them on their sound quality and not their stereo pinpointedness, and generally found them pleasing.
I put far less importance on the stereo image than most, (and just view it as an artificial construct a lot of the time) So the few times I have heard omnis I have judged them on their sound quality and not their stereo pinpointedness, and generally found them pleasing.
that could be enough for normal DR speakers, but for OMNIs it may be too little. Particularly if the room is large (l>12ft).
Forget about the conventional 60° stereo triangle idea: with OMNIs you are listening mainly to "the room" (reflections from walls and ceiling) rather than from the sound directly emitted by the speakers.
For the best results with omnis you may easily end up with the speakers sitting almost at the sides of the listening position (120° or more being not uncommon) and with much more space between speakers than with normal DR types.
Also play with the distance from the side walls: in your case that may be too much. Usually you need to have the distance from the back wall >= than the distance from the side walls, and the distance from listening position to the speakers less than that from sp to back wall.
Depending on the speaker design, also the ceiling may be playing a major role... (unfortunately that's harder to deal with).
Anyway, the bottom line is: instead of searching the "sweet spot" for the listening position, you'll have to search the "sweet spot" for the speakers.
If your room does allow at least one such spot and you will be able to find it, you'll discover that basically there will be no more a "sweet spot" for the listening position! You should become able to hear almost identically well (with good imaging, too) from (almost) any position in the room!
That's one of the many great features of OMNIs which rarely (if ever) can be matched with more conventional speakers...
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Oh my, no!
Quite the contrary: creating huge, realistic, life-like 3D imaging is exactly what (good) OMNIs are best at!