Thank you, graaf. I'll give that a listen...catch up on current thinking by some of the better minds regarding the subject.
I've always kept in mind Linkwitz' comment 'ignore the room'. I've had to do just that nearly everywhere I've lived with whatever speakers that happened to be along for that part of the ride. Decent omnis IMHO at least make the approach properly, recreating the space as opposed to hosing one down with directed sound.
I still have my atypical 'typical' speakers, but I use them more as a reference point than as 'daily drivers', to steal a phrase...although any speaker has it's own 'voice', much like us. I've noticed that with my objects; although they're of different physical size, there's a commonality as to How they sound, what their 'voice' is like given the same input. You can definitely tell they're cousins. *G*
I've always kept in mind Linkwitz' comment 'ignore the room'. I've had to do just that nearly everywhere I've lived with whatever speakers that happened to be along for that part of the ride. Decent omnis IMHO at least make the approach properly, recreating the space as opposed to hosing one down with directed sound.
I still have my atypical 'typical' speakers, but I use them more as a reference point than as 'daily drivers', to steal a phrase...although any speaker has it's own 'voice', much like us. I've noticed that with my objects; although they're of different physical size, there's a commonality as to How they sound, what their 'voice' is like given the same input. You can definitely tell they're cousins. *G*
This was a very interesting read. I'm considering to either build some omnis myself, or to buy one of the commercial offerings. My experience is that omnis can sound more natural than frontfiring speakers.
Just a related question to the omni owners out there: Do you have any thoughts/experience on proper acoustic room treatment for omnis? Most of the existing advise for room acoustics are geared towards conventional forward-firing speakers, so I don't know if it's applicable for omnis. Concerning the back wall behind the listener for example: Would it be a good idea to leave this relatively untreated, or add some cheap absorbtion, or diffusers? As I understand it, the ideal thing for omnis would be for the reflections to come back as "pure" as possible. If it's an absorber that only takes up parts of the frequency range, that could be a problem for example, so a diffusor could work better.
(if it's ok that I'm asking about it in this thread)
Just a related question to the omni owners out there: Do you have any thoughts/experience on proper acoustic room treatment for omnis? Most of the existing advise for room acoustics are geared towards conventional forward-firing speakers, so I don't know if it's applicable for omnis. Concerning the back wall behind the listener for example: Would it be a good idea to leave this relatively untreated, or add some cheap absorbtion, or diffusers? As I understand it, the ideal thing for omnis would be for the reflections to come back as "pure" as possible. If it's an absorber that only takes up parts of the frequency range, that could be a problem for example, so a diffusor could work better.
(if it's ok that I'm asking about it in this thread)
I think there are 2 schools of thought on this. One view is directivity, min reflections and localization is primarily important for a technical listener. The other view is that spaciousness and reflections are key to pleasing sound even if it sacrifices some localization detail. I'm in the latter camp. Some reflections are needed, otherwise you'd use an anechoic chamber or an open field as a listening room (neither is pleasing). The debate is in the degree and hence your preference, and hence never solved
Authors like Floyd Toole have studied this extensively and its the theme of his book. A true Omni has the exact same response 360deg around and by definition has constant directivity. They spray the room and provide excellent lateral reflections from the walls, and they sound very natural and spacious (to me anyways). I don't treat the room, but I place the speaker >1m from any wall, furniture and carpet is enough damping, and don't sit against a wall. Still working on mine.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/303941-omnidirectional-work-progress.html
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Thanks, DonVK! Interesting to read about your experiences. I'm to a certain extent in both "camps": I like very detailed pinpoint imaging, but also like very much to have a airy and spatial sound. The question is whether one can have both...
Interesting that you don't treat walls at all. I currently have absorbers on the back wall, but maybe that won't be needed with omnis.
Interesting that you don't treat walls at all. I currently have absorbers on the back wall, but maybe that won't be needed with omnis.
According to Toole, reflections from behind are not helpful. Your back wall treatment is probably better. I have large windows on 3 sides so absorbers are not really an option for me, and I don't seem to be bothered by back wall (window) reflections.
BTW....I'm back. *S* Hi, y'all. *S*
After 7 wks. in FL & 2 wks. of recoup', restoration, and relative 'nice, normal chaos' it's nice to be able to take a moment and see if anyone's still 'listening'.
Anyhow...have picked up the parts and started doing some assembly on the V.4's. The CNC'd bases have been laid out and drilled, the tweets have been installed into theirs, and patterns are about to be created for the surrounds and assembly routines on the main cones. Tubing and hardware will begin to be cut after some 'fine tuning' of lengths...just to be sure, as 'stretchers' for that sort of thing are in short supply...
Have had 9 wks. to consider cone fabrication, still a major routine to get into. Rolling them is still a hands-on activity that demands time, patience, and a high degree of attention and care. I'm planning on doing a 'test crash dummy' or three to ensure I can create 4 final ones that exhibit a high degree of duplication and quality control.
Getting my head back into the quest has taken some 'goofing around' with side projects, just to 'warm up' the hands that will do the deed...
...and I'm just about There. *G*
After 7 wks. in FL & 2 wks. of recoup', restoration, and relative 'nice, normal chaos' it's nice to be able to take a moment and see if anyone's still 'listening'.
Anyhow...have picked up the parts and started doing some assembly on the V.4's. The CNC'd bases have been laid out and drilled, the tweets have been installed into theirs, and patterns are about to be created for the surrounds and assembly routines on the main cones. Tubing and hardware will begin to be cut after some 'fine tuning' of lengths...just to be sure, as 'stretchers' for that sort of thing are in short supply...
Have had 9 wks. to consider cone fabrication, still a major routine to get into. Rolling them is still a hands-on activity that demands time, patience, and a high degree of attention and care. I'm planning on doing a 'test crash dummy' or three to ensure I can create 4 final ones that exhibit a high degree of duplication and quality control.
Getting my head back into the quest has taken some 'goofing around' with side projects, just to 'warm up' the hands that will do the deed...
...and I'm just about There. *G*
Sorry to come in on this very late, but my take on the subject (for what it's worth) is as follows:
The way the source material was recorded may be a deciding factor: for a "dry" recording which excludes much of the acoustic environment, then an omni should allow the room to impose its own acoustic, so the performance appears to be "in the room". Conversely, the narrow-directivity speaker will just sound "dry".
For a recording in which much of the acoustic environment has been included, then you'd expect a narrow-directivity speaker to take you into the performance as it was recorded (if sitting in the sweet spot). Whereas the omni would just add a lot of room clutter.
Apologies if this has been discussed before...
The way the source material was recorded may be a deciding factor: for a "dry" recording which excludes much of the acoustic environment, then an omni should allow the room to impose its own acoustic, so the performance appears to be "in the room". Conversely, the narrow-directivity speaker will just sound "dry".
For a recording in which much of the acoustic environment has been included, then you'd expect a narrow-directivity speaker to take you into the performance as it was recorded (if sitting in the sweet spot). Whereas the omni would just add a lot of room clutter.
Apologies if this has been discussed before...
100% agreed on my part.
And I would add that, given my preference for the "you are there" experience afforded by "live" acoustic recordings reproduced by narrow-directivity speakers, vs. the "they are here" experience provided by "dry" recordings reproduced by omnis, I favour the former approach.
To each their own.
Marco
Hypothesis, theory and speculations: that's what all of the recurring arguments against omnis are all about.
But... have you ever really tried and seriously listened to a good pair of omnis, properly setup in a suitable room?
It doesn't look like you did, or you wouldn't say what you say...
P.S.: about "dry" or "wet" recordings: do you know that, with a few exceptions (mostly classical music), in your records there is basically no such thing as a (real) "acoustic environment"?
Whatever you hear in most records is not the reproduction of a "real event", but rather that of a "virtual event" artificially built on a bench (or, more frequently today, on a DAW). The "acoustic environment" which your hear is in fact just artificial reverberation added to tracks and mixes...
But... have you ever really tried and seriously listened to a good pair of omnis, properly setup in a suitable room?
It doesn't look like you did, or you wouldn't say what you say...
P.S.: about "dry" or "wet" recordings: do you know that, with a few exceptions (mostly classical music), in your records there is basically no such thing as a (real) "acoustic environment"?
Whatever you hear in most records is not the reproduction of a "real event", but rather that of a "virtual event" artificially built on a bench (or, more frequently today, on a DAW). The "acoustic environment" which your hear is in fact just artificial reverberation added to tracks and mixes...
Yes, more than once.
It doesn't look like you did, or you wouldn't say what you say...
I still stand by my statements.
It depends on what you listen to.
I have several audiophile recordings (classical AND jazz) which contain low-level natural reverberation from the original recording venues. I like to hear those delicate cues, and hence my choice of loudspeaker directivity.
Others may have different preferences and priorities, and/or may only listen to multi-track recordings that only contain artificial reverb. And that is fine. As I said, to each their own.
But please don't come here patronizing me or anyone else with your "truths". Thanks.
Jeez a thread starter of mine that got a few replies lol
I listened to 3 different Duevel omni's at a Bangkok hifi show recently and it was an odd experience. Im not sure if imaging was any way near as a good standard set up but there were some things an omni does much better. Having said that, out of the 3 Duevel models, the crazy expensive one sounded just terrible, very peaky sound.. The cheaper Duevel Enterprise was the one to go for imo
I listened to 3 different Duevel omni's at a Bangkok hifi show recently and it was an odd experience. Im not sure if imaging was any way near as a good standard set up but there were some things an omni does much better. Having said that, out of the 3 Duevel models, the crazy expensive one sounded just terrible, very peaky sound.. The cheaper Duevel Enterprise was the one to go for imo
a lot depends also on proper placement (which can be quite critical) as well as on the room and its acoustic characteristics, of course. Not all rooms are suitable (or can be adapted) to get the best results out of a pair of OMNIs.
And, of course, as not all conventional speakers are created equal, the same stands for omnis as well...
Marco, yes....to each.*S*
Omnis, Properly set up in a 'home' environment (obviously 'listening rooms' or 'man caves' fit this parameter) IMHO will provide the 'in the room' experience. By 'dry', I assume you and Keith are referring to 'studio' recordings. Then the perception is driven by the mixmasters art...levels, balance, all that...
In regards to 'live' to reproduced, then a proper 'reproduction space' becomes critical, much like the care taken for direct radiators. The space becomes part and parcel to the experience....
As for myself, I'm being more 'complicated' in my approach, using 4 Walsh in a 'surround array'. By manipulating levels and using identical drivers, I'm finding that I can almost put a vocalist in front of you. Now, you could say that I'm just distorting the source material, and you're welcome to that opinion. But, again, to each...
I hardly listen to my 'direct radiators' anymore, except as 'water marks' for response as I twiddle with the details of my efforts. I don't expect absolute perfection; personally, I believe that only exists in the moment of the live performance or the interior of the mixers' workspace and it's monitors. Everything else is art and artifice. We can expend pages of forum discussing this and still not agree to agree....
Enjoy what you have in whatever floats your boat. I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I still have mine. And, at the end of the day, that's what matters....to me.
Omnis, Properly set up in a 'home' environment (obviously 'listening rooms' or 'man caves' fit this parameter) IMHO will provide the 'in the room' experience. By 'dry', I assume you and Keith are referring to 'studio' recordings. Then the perception is driven by the mixmasters art...levels, balance, all that...
In regards to 'live' to reproduced, then a proper 'reproduction space' becomes critical, much like the care taken for direct radiators. The space becomes part and parcel to the experience....
As for myself, I'm being more 'complicated' in my approach, using 4 Walsh in a 'surround array'. By manipulating levels and using identical drivers, I'm finding that I can almost put a vocalist in front of you. Now, you could say that I'm just distorting the source material, and you're welcome to that opinion. But, again, to each...
I hardly listen to my 'direct radiators' anymore, except as 'water marks' for response as I twiddle with the details of my efforts. I don't expect absolute perfection; personally, I believe that only exists in the moment of the live performance or the interior of the mixers' workspace and it's monitors. Everything else is art and artifice. We can expend pages of forum discussing this and still not agree to agree....
Enjoy what you have in whatever floats your boat. I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I still have mine. And, at the end of the day, that's what matters....to me.
They are not more popular because they are niche, generally harder to obtain, more expensive to buy and harder to build. I think they are more sensitive to room setup, than conventional, because they use the room more.
The Omni's do sound different and they maximize the reflections in the room. By their nature they "spray" the room OmniDirectional - work in progress. That being said, it's a personal choice, do you like this or not?
If you like minimal reflections, then anechoic chambers, open fields and headphones will suite that preference.
Omni's can generate a wider soundstage and sound more spacious compared to other conventional speakers. OmniDirectional - work in progress .
The Omni's do sound different and they maximize the reflections in the room. By their nature they "spray" the room OmniDirectional - work in progress. That being said, it's a personal choice, do you like this or not?
If you like minimal reflections, then anechoic chambers, open fields and headphones will suite that preference.
Omni's can generate a wider soundstage and sound more spacious compared to other conventional speakers. OmniDirectional - work in progress .