The driver needs to be EQ'd anyway so all that matters is how much overall energy is radiated at any frequency and how smooth that curve is.
WelterSys -
"...the larger the speaker diameter, the more “beamy” it is.
Larger is more beamy? Are you sure?
That seems to go against common knowledge. Woofers tend to be omni-directional (to varying degrees) and Tweeter tend to have a narrow beam of sound under the best of circumstances.
Is there a context to your statement that I am missing, or did you misspeak?
Steve/bluewizard
"...the larger the speaker diameter, the more “beamy” it is.
Larger is more beamy? Are you sure?
That seems to go against common knowledge. Woofers tend to be omni-directional (to varying degrees) and Tweeter tend to have a narrow beam of sound under the best of circumstances.
Is there a context to your statement that I am missing, or did you misspeak?
Steve/bluewizard
Originally Posted by weltersys
All speakers have a narrowing response above the wavelength of the piston diameter, the larger the speaker diameter, the more “beamy” it is.
The narrowing on axis high frequency response is usually the cause of a rise in the “treble region”, off axis the same speaker will sound "dull".
If the full range driver's narrow pattern is widened to 360 degrees with an omni reflector, it will then exhibit a high frequency (treble) loss.
Most omnis have much less than 180 degree vertical HF dispersion, so do have a vertical axis.
If the vertical axis has a narrow enough angle, a 10 dB on axis HF rise for a single full range speaker with a "omni" deflector may be sufficient for 360 degree horizontal flat response, but the -6 dB vertical HF dispersion would have to be a fraction of the former beamwidth.
In other words, the HF dispersion would go from a forward facing cone shape, to something that looks more like a disc.
All speakers have a narrowing response above the wavelength of the piston diameter, the larger the speaker diameter, the more “beamy” it is.
The narrowing on axis high frequency response is usually the cause of a rise in the “treble region”, off axis the same speaker will sound "dull".
If the full range driver's narrow pattern is widened to 360 degrees with an omni reflector, it will then exhibit a high frequency (treble) loss.
A true omnidirectional source would radiate spherically.
Most omnis have much less than 180 degree vertical HF dispersion, so do have a vertical axis.
If the vertical axis has a narrow enough angle, a 10 dB on axis HF rise for a single full range speaker with a "omni" deflector may be sufficient for 360 degree horizontal flat response, but the -6 dB vertical HF dispersion would have to be a fraction of the former beamwidth.
In other words, the HF dispersion would go from a forward facing cone shape, to something that looks more like a disc.
The bigger the (piston) driver the earlier it starts to beam. http://www.kettering.edu/physics/drussell/Demos/BaffledPiston/BaffledPiston.html
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Cone speakers are omnidirectional at very low frequencies, and progressively narrow in dispersion at higher frequencies.
Dispersion varies with cone size and frequency, a 15” speaker is about -6 dB at 60 degree at about 1.8K, a 12” at 2.2K, a 10” at 2.8K.
A 15” has a 180 degree -6 dB beam width at around 600 HZ, a 12” at about 800, and a 10” at about 1200 HZ.
A single front loaded 12 inch cone has an approximate -6 dB 60 degree beamwidth at 2.5K, but only a 30 degree beamwidth at 4K.
The smaller the piston diameter, the wider the dispersion for a given frequency.
Small diameter tweeters must be chosen if wide dispersion is desired.
For a tweeter to have omnispherical dispersion to 20K would require it to be a theoretical dimensionless point source.
In the real world, a 5/8 inch diameter cone gives about a 180 degree pattern at 20 K, good enough for a two or more to approximate a HF "omni" source.
What is "good sound"? I'm guessing you were inferring source-accurate sound, with accuracy having as little know distortion as possible.
Of course there is no such thing as a 100% distortion free speaker. (..and this is even if we had the capability to precisely identify and measure all forms of distortion - which we don't.)
Considering that it's not actually achievable, does this mean no one has "good sound"? 😉
That's not the point. Of course there is no 100% distortion free speaker but that doesn't reduce the importance of striving for it.
Tinitus said that colored sound is a goal. I just pointed out that coloration is a description for distorted sound which is definitely not (or should not be) a goal in speaker design.
An extreme other side
Talking about the size of drivers while listening to Triplexity reminds me of how often I'm surprised by the sound of my laptop. It´s a Xxod (like Clevo) with side firing speakers about 1 cm big and while it doesn't do bass it does let me see into the acoustic environment of a recording.
It doesn't lack a phantom centre nor depth (even some vertical height!) and if recording permits it projects sound from outside left and right. Envelopment is also possible.
This setup provides me with a miniature 3D soundstage which confirms (to me) what I've noticed using wide dispersion open baffle speakers that omni sound can extract the most out of a recording.
Talking about the size of drivers while listening to Triplexity reminds me of how often I'm surprised by the sound of my laptop. It´s a Xxod (like Clevo) with side firing speakers about 1 cm big and while it doesn't do bass it does let me see into the acoustic environment of a recording.
It doesn't lack a phantom centre nor depth (even some vertical height!) and if recording permits it projects sound from outside left and right. Envelopment is also possible.
This setup provides me with a miniature 3D soundstage which confirms (to me) what I've noticed using wide dispersion open baffle speakers that omni sound can extract the most out of a recording.
I said that if you strive too hard to achieve non colored sound theres a risk of
removing the 'colors' that actually makes the music different from pointless noise
music is about colors
you need a system that reproduces colors correctly, in a way that makes them sound natural
its about coherency more than anything else
and omni speakers can do that very well
removing the 'colors' that actually makes the music different from pointless noise
music is about colors
you need a system that reproduces colors correctly, in a way that makes them sound natural
its about coherency more than anything else
and omni speakers can do that very well
The point was unclear, and used exceedingly broad generalities. 😉
There is also a distinct problem with your goal of accuracy in a loudspeaker design (beyond those I've mentioned previously with regard to "accuracy" and "distortion").
The whole point of musical reproduction for 99.99% of the populace is musical enjoyment, not any particular accuracy. If perhaps you like BB King, and a particular loudspeaker design *embellishes* upon those aspects that improves the net experience for BB King (reproduction), then what? Are you going to argue for higher source-accuracy with a potential loss in enjoyment?
Of course such an argument holds for those who desire source-accuracy, or for those by profession who need it. But again, that's a .01% argument.
Getting back to the topic of this thread..
I personally think that radials (or "omnis") move beyond a source-accuracy argument. If you consider the goal of accurate reproduction to the final master, what type of loudspeakers are most often used for mastering? I'm pretty sure that most won't be "omnis". If it's not an "omni" then a significant change in polar pattern has got to be a distortion (or an addition beyond that intended).
Really it is the job of the artist, producer, engineer, mix engineer, etc... to color the music appropriately and to the liking of themselves and their fans. Wether you want to color that further is up to you the individual. Wether or not you do, is not really. You will to some degree. I try to minimize it, but to each their own. The more I record, the more it annoys me hearing my recordings on crappy systems at friends houses. Good systems... make me happy. My efforts can be heard if not always appreciated. 🙂
Dan
Dan
Just speaker *positioning* relative to each other and in-room, is not only under the control of the listener, but will significantly "color" the reproduction. 😉
Somehow I suspect you mixed several things up.
The coloration of sound is vibration of wrong intensity and/or wrong frequency. If we can track down the cause of the resonance and take it under control, then the wrong vibration would be largely gone. This portion of vibration is not in the original music signal.
While the correct vibrations originally embedde in the music are still there. Unless the damping or notch filter for suppressing the resonance is overdone so they suppress the original signal in that area.
Then there're two things: 1) the cure is overdone. 2) the resonance problem is not correctly dealt with and it's still somewhere.
These are not in music signal after all, from the very beginning.
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Or, your observation has something to do with the combing filter effect by 2ch stereo setup, mixed by all sorts of directivity issues?
may be
to me, 'coloration' could be a driver making too much sound of its own
like a flappy paper cone
or it could be a metal cone ringing
or a driver used in way it shouldn't be
or could be a ressonating box
or simply playing too loud
some tube amps
some preamps
some power amps
and so on
any artefacts caused by crossover or wrong speaker design in general, I consider malfunction, and not coloration
or do you consider BSC coloration
well, in a way it is, isn't it 
a speaker plagued with high level of coloration is not able to reproduce the many colors in the music
and a very 'clean' and 'correct' speaker might in some cases be equally unable too
thats all I'm saying
you will know when you hear it
Vivaldi and Bach are the ultimate test
if any of it sounds just one bit boring, then something is wrong
well, sometimes it is the musicians
and techno should actually sound good too
power and rythm, and smooth
I prefer emotional listening over intellectual listening
been there too
actually, I think intellectual listening is the cause of crappy sound
personally I have wasted way too much time on such
I prefer small amounts a musical coloration over lifeless sound without any soul
to me music has to be exciting, or it has no meaning
well, I guess 'neutral' was invented by audiophiles to describe that in the middle, somewhere
that is, if it exists
Tinitus, I understand now what you mean.
My own version will be that the speaker has to be as faithful as possible in tonality, details, balance, timing... whatever : this the "intellectual" side and can be tracked by adequate measurements.
Now, of equal importance, the life, the soul, the magic, all the things that can't be measured are in the psychoacoustic domain and IMOH, are as you say, the most rewarding.
From my experience, it's possible to have a good approach with alternative models of distribution, omni being only one of the possible conditions.
My own version will be that the speaker has to be as faithful as possible in tonality, details, balance, timing... whatever : this the "intellectual" side and can be tracked by adequate measurements.
Now, of equal importance, the life, the soul, the magic, all the things that can't be measured are in the psychoacoustic domain and IMOH, are as you say, the most rewarding.
From my experience, it's possible to have a good approach with alternative models of distribution, omni being only one of the possible conditions.
That's a discussion I'm not interested in ("Preference vs. Reference"). We had that before and we're getting nowhere as long as there are no strict standards for music production.
What I'm interested in is profane. How does the reflection pattern have to look like in order to create a believable real sound source from a two channel stereo recording? How important is the effect of being aurally adapted to the listening room?
Psychoacoustics is not about emotions, soul, magic and definitely not about things that can not be measured. Psychoacoustics is about relating physical measurements to perception. Perception of timbre, distortion, space, etc.