nah
but the answer might help me to understand this color vs non color thing better
but personally I cannot understand how you can think about sound/music being non colored
to me, non colored sound is just pointless noise
good involving rythms might save it tho
techno 'music, or similar
its going OT
but still, if those terms are the way we understand sound, it might be important that we at least understand each othe
or speak the same 'language', so to speak
but still, I have seen too many 'efforts' to hide poor sound sound behind such terms like 'accuracy', analytic, studio sound, monitor sound.......etc
but its really totally mislead by some audiophiles, through many years
but I guess we better try to get back to OMNI speakers, again
this time I derailed it, sorry
but the answer might help me to understand this color vs non color thing better
but personally I cannot understand how you can think about sound/music being non colored
to me, non colored sound is just pointless noise
good involving rythms might save it tho
techno 'music, or similar
its going OT
but still, if those terms are the way we understand sound, it might be important that we at least understand each othe
or speak the same 'language', so to speak
but still, I have seen too many 'efforts' to hide poor sound sound behind such terms like 'accuracy', analytic, studio sound, monitor sound.......etc
but its really totally mislead by some audiophiles, through many years
but I guess we better try to get back to OMNI speakers, again
this time I derailed it, sorry
or could have been a joke, BB King being colored 😀 why didn't I think of that 😛
point is, when listening to the true sound of BB king, there is BB King, and all the others
if you don't hear that, something is missing
and I'm not even a fanatic fan
his sound is just HUGE
right now watching a Barbera Streisand concert fro US
can't think of anyone having a more 'colored' voice
not a great fan of her either
just a great lady, with HUGE sound
and she's got SOUL too, in her own way
psykoacoustic is simply not in my vocabulary, sorry
I agree but "coloration" or "colored sound" isn't a positive attribute. It doesn't make sense to reverse the meaning of already well defined words.
This software lets you hear what "coloration" sounds like.
well, but my claims are not based on any kind of logical argument starting from premises but on direct experience, not only mine but also of other diyaudio users as well
OTOH I don't know the operating principle I must admit
it seems that in general we don't understand the room-speaker interface, because we cannot really explain what we can hear
perhaps it is a question of a special kind of reflection pattern that is harmless, I don't know
I can see more than one a misunderstanding here -I am not saying that reflections are pleasant, rather I am saying that our sense of hearing expects a certain kind of reflection patterns to occur in case of a real/realistic sound event - it is question not of subjective pleasure but of intersubjective (human) act of recognition as real/realistic
neither I am saying that my aim is most true representation of the original recording
not at all - my aim is realistic sound reproduction - the original and in my opinion the only meaningfull understanding of High Fidelity
I concur completely, because such is also my experience, and some people even claim to have theories explaining this (eg. David Moulton), and while I am not convinced by those theories I know what I can hear, as goes the saying the proof is in the eating
in a normal room certainly they are, and Your room is not normal with this dead front wall, this is one thing and other is listening distance - from the pictures You have posted I assume that You must be much to close to the speakers for a flooder configuration to work properly
a flooder is about hiding the speakers as a localizable physical sound sources, the aim is to hide their position in reflections
of course the closer one is to the flooder the less it is hidden in reflections and the more localizable as a physical sound sources with all consequences such as drawing of images towards the speakers that is (in this case) lower and to the respective side, so we end up with "unnatural low position" and a soundstage "devided into two halfs with a "hole" in the middle"
it that regard it is similar to back-to-back configuration which also requires certain minimum listening distance as was demonstrated by Elias in the Stereolith-thread
agreed
I don't really feel that those clarifications were needed, anyway, then - what is the crucial difference between a 5-incher (that in Ol's experience can be placed on the floor) and an 8-incher (that in Ol's experience should be lifted up) from this perspective?
also - is that vertical shift something beneficial or detrimental to the realism of sound reproduction in that particular case?
The idea here isn't that music should have no "color", but that the color should be provided by the musicians, producers, and engineers, not added after the fact by the playback system.
As opposed to, say, a colored speaker that makes all voices sound like they cupped their hands around their mouths.
ahh, ok
thats what I would consider a badly designed and non functioning speaker
well, I would run away too 😉
and I can tell you also with almost certainty that what you descibe is mostly caused by poor crossover function
heard and owned them too
happy to say I'm lucky to have learned how to deal with it
my point is that if you try very hard to make a 100% non colored speaker there will be a huge risk of actually removing something from the music
I take the risk and claim that it will happen
but how is colored related to OMNI speakers 😕
btw, my goal is always a natural sounding and relaxed speaker
when that happens, everything is good
funny thing is, when dynamics are improved, by means of xo, the sound gets slower, and more relaxed, and smooth
thats why I say it pointless to judge a speaker without a proper crossover
Given that speaker frequency measurements are done in controlled environments, I'm not sure if an omni speaker would be any worse than many 'direct' speakers in an average living room.
Good questions, don't know. 😱
I would think however that both of these drivers (visaton and ciare) would have a more prominent midrange at say 60 degrees (vs. 90). That tends to alter subjective impressions and makes the loudspeaker more localized as a source. It's a guess though.
I also think that if a person is complaining about it, then chances are for these people (at least), it's less compelling and therefor the floor presentation is more detrimental with these types of 8 inch drivers.
I have a pair of upturned speakers as described earlier in the thread and strangely enough I find them far more hard to localize than ordinary speakers.
Ordinary speakers I can pinpoint easy, like if someone is talking I know where their mouth is.
The omnis aren't like that, I can point in their direction but I cannot pinpoint them. Sound is also unchanged if I block the direct path to the speaker so trying to block it to figure out where it is doesn't help 😉.
Ordinary speakers I can pinpoint easy, like if someone is talking I know where their mouth is.
The omnis aren't like that, I can point in their direction but I cannot pinpoint them. Sound is also unchanged if I block the direct path to the speaker so trying to block it to figure out where it is doesn't help 😉.
Really?
Maybe because my living room is very live (too much reflection), I can't pinpoint the talking mouth (with my eyes closed).
When someone is talking at several meters away, I can only hear a fuzzy body. The size of that image (now the real thing) is definitely much larger than the person. I can recognize the appox. pose of the talking person - standing or seated or walking or facing me or turn around...etc., but can never pinpoint the mouth.
Unless the mouth is within 1m or so.
A violin in living room also sounds way bigger than its real size. Let alone a piano.
Also, I can never 'pinpoint' a certain instrument in live concerts. I can point out approx. where they are, but never in the precision of 'pin size'. The images of sounds are always bigger than their physical sizes.
Unless in a very dead environment, where the sound images would be smaller. However in such space, we mostly feel somewhat unnatural.
That's my observation.
Colored sound is the result of distortion. The Harman software lets you hear what "coloration" sounds like. A 100% distortion free speaker does not impose the risk of removing something. It is a basic prerequisite for good sound.
The debate started with this post. It was just a subjective description of how omnis sound to me.
lets try to keep it civil
but I would sure like to see the debate dominated by those who actually have interest in OMNI speaker
but maybe the questioning way of the title does open the door to being negative, and to shoot it down
being critical is ofcourse a good thing too
but negativity isn't
its just not very creative
but I would sure like to see the debate dominated by those who actually have interest in OMNI speaker
but maybe the questioning way of the title does open the door to being negative, and to shoot it down
being critical is ofcourse a good thing too
but negativity isn't
its just not very creative
There are quite a few full range drivers with large rises in the treble region- treble loss seems to be an issue with omnis so I am guessing that these could work well.
All speakers have a narrowing response above the wavelength of the piston diameter, the larger the speaker diameter, the more “beamy” it is.
The narrowing on axis high frequency response is usually the cause of a rise in the “treble region”, off axis the same speaker will sound "dull".
If the full range driver's narrow pattern is widened to 360 degrees with an omni reflector, it will then exhibit a high frequency (treble) loss.